How Treasury Technology and External Support Drive Strategic Change | Treasury Careers Podcast

Mike, CEO, The Treasury Recruitment Company: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week’s Treasury Career Corner Podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week, I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the [00:00:10] treasury profession going to next. In this week’s show, delighted to be joined by John James Dunne, the founder and principal at Elevate Treasury Advisory.

Mike: Elevate Treasury Advisory [00:00:20] helps organizations transform treasury into a strategic driver of enterprise value. Founded by John James Dunne a former group treasurer. And actually he former presidentof [00:00:30] the IACT, and lecturer in corporate treasury with the Institute of Bankers.

Mike: John James and his team Elevate Treasury support CFOs, treasurers, finance [00:00:40] leaders, and boards in optimizing liquidity, reducing financial risk, strengthening governance, and enabling digital treasury excellence.

Mike: . John James, take us back to the [00:00:50] beginning with you. How did you first start in finance and treasury?

John James, Founder and Principal of Elevate Treasury Advisory: Yeah. Thanks, Mike, for the opportunity to speak, Pleasure

John James: once again. I suppose like many treasury professionals, I fell into treasury. It’s a term you [00:01:00] probably have heard on a lot of- Yeah … your podcasts. I finished university in 2011, which was the height of unemployment following the- … financial crisis, and to be honest, the only job offer I had [00:01:10] was treasury.

John James: So I joined IBM on a internship on a ro- on a rotation program, and I was actually made permanent to the role after six months [00:01:20] because I immediately went in and I started to improve processes. This is a theme you’re gonna find, throughout the podcast. Made permanent, I rotated, completed the [00:01:30] internship, and then I moved into the dealing room.

John James: And to be honest, in the early part of my time in IBM, I actually hated treasury. I hated the BAU, I hated the manual e-elements [00:01:40] of the process. But as I moved from, let’s say, payments into cash management into the dealing room, that little bit more decision-making gave me the hook to actually say, “I actually [00:01:50] want to stay in treasury.”

Mike: Yeah.

John James: And when I moved into the dealing room and you’re executing, billions of transactions value, billions of value of transactions on a [00:02:00] weekly basis, I actually thought I’d peaked in my treasury career so early on. Even though I think I was, like, 22 years of age, thought I was the Wolf of Wall Street.

John James: But [00:02:10] then I suppose I started to think a little bit more broadly about my career. IBM obviously a fantastic organization, very mature treasury function, over 200 peop- 250 people in [00:02:20] treasury at the time. I always found that I was finishing off the last 1, 2, 3% of a process that I was improving or that, that little bit of improvement, and I wanted something that was a bit [00:02:30] more transformational at the time.

John James: and that’s actually when I decided after three to four years that I would actually make the move and, step out of IBM.

Mike: And just before we, we [00:02:40] step you out on that-

John James: Yeah …

Mike: I was recently talking to a candidate who, and it’s gonna be one of our newsletters, where he’s quite early on. He’s probably 18.

Mike: I think he’s actually, 18 months again into [00:02:50] his career. And j- early day, “Oh, I’m thinking of moving. Oh, I wanna get back in the, I want to do a front office. I want to do this.” Yeah. I was like, “I think that’s a good thing to do.” He said, “All [00:03:00] right, great. can you move me?” I said, no, not yet.”

Mike: I said, “You don’t know enough yet.” I said, “Because it was also more about adding value to the organization.” He was, like, going, [00:03:10] he was being quite selfish, I think, about it. And I’m not, wasn’t being rude. I said, “Look, I think you need to give back more.” As you say, finish those processes.

Mike: Actually, learn more, [00:03:20] and also the breadth. W- when, if we talk to that for a moment, y- that’s a, I know you and I have talked about that. That’s a key thing, isn’t it? You doing your foundational work, didn’t you [00:03:30] find?

John James: Yeah, a- absolutely. You have to build up that, that high performance over an extended period.

John James: If you do it once, you prove you’re capable. If you [00:03:40] do it a few times, you prove that you’re reliable and that, you build up your brand value, that you’re someone who delivers over and over again, and it’s not just a once off. You have to have a little bit of [00:03:50] patience.

Mike: Yeah. Will you then, talk us through the next move.

John James: Yeah, and th- this is one thing that also is gonna resonate t- throughout our discussion is networking. I, I [00:04:00] managed to build up a network within the ICT relatively early, and I was connected to an opportunity in Grafton Group. So unfortunately, Mike, I didn’t actually go through a recruiter to move into Grafton [00:04:10] Group.

Mike: It’s all right. We, we- … weren’t connected. I wasn’t around. Don’t worry. Who are Grafton Group?

John James: So Grafton Group are an international builders building materials group. So if you think of in Ireland, you [00:04:20] have Woodie, Chadwicks in the UK. at the time, Buildbase, now disposed. Selco, et cetera, and in other European geographies as well.

John James: So they were, very [00:04:30] well settled on treasury strategy, fundraising, et cetera, but their treasury operations was quite, undeveloped at the time. Didn’t have someone full-time in in, in [00:04:40] that side of the business So I joined as the first dedicated treasury professional. I had a relatively clean slate in front of me.

John James: I brought in an FX hedging program, [00:04:50] implemented their first TMS, and I was an early adopter of Microsoft Power BI back in– This is back in 2015. I think that Power BI had actually only just been launched kind of- Just launched it, yeah. [00:05:00] Yeah. So jumped on that and got huge value out of kind of the BI analytics side of things.

John James: That’s really where I got my teeth into the transformation side of [00:05:10] things. And as I got the hook in IBM, thought it was gonna be a career. It was when I got into the transformational side of things, I was like: Wow, this is definitely something I want to pursue going forward. And when, I was in [00:05:20] i- or was, when I was in Grafton Group, that kind of transformation was recognized with Adam Smith Award for best cash management solution.

John James: And I received two nominations for the [00:05:30] Real IT Awards, which are UK IT industry awards. So not treasury, this is a separate industry award. Nominated but didn’t win, which I still think is a, a fantastic [00:05:40] achievement. So BT actually won one of the categories. They had, 200 people, seven-figure, budget.

John James: They rolled out the smart meters across the UK, so it was really [00:05:50] David, one-man band, versus Goliath. Yeah. So I was delighted to be there and, obviously, winning the Adam Smith Award is probably the, the kind of the, the highlight of my career to [00:06:00] date in terms of recognition. And when…

Mike: And what challenges did you face when you were, you came in with this, I know that-

John James: Yeah

Mike: again, data-led thinking into treasury- Yeah … [00:06:10] data systems and things like that. It, was there more a business as usual approach, hang on while you’re doing this stuff, or w- was everyone in, on board with it, or what was the situation? [00:06:20] In,

John James: in fairness to the senior leadership team, they fully backed the concepts that I wanted to bring in.

John James: It was more the people at roughly my level or between myself and senior [00:06:30] leadership that I had to bring them along, take them on the journey, explain to them why they’re doing it. And I typically would focus on initial early wins to try and [00:06:40] show people and demonstrate, we made this little improvement and it yielded something significant.

John James: Imagine if we do it on a bigger scale. And just try to bring them along the journey, involve them in the [00:06:50] decision-making, rather than just telling them, “This is what you’re gonna do.” And that is not just at head office, but that’s really something that I like to apply across the whole business.

Mike: Yeah.

John James: I’ve often seen a [00:07:00] lot of finance teams dictate to the underlying business units, ” Do this.

John James: The report is due on this date. You have to do it. Here are the guidelines.” I would try to build a [00:07:10] tangible relationship up with the business units, and also bring them on the journey and show, why is treasury important to you? And for those business units, I would typically say, “You guys make the money, and I’ll [00:07:20] manage it.”

Mike: And that, give us a practical example or, just talk us through how you would approach that sort of thing. Again, if someone’s listening today- Yeah … they may be more junior, they’re still learning the, [00:07:30] learning treasury, and they’re given the responsibility for this. How do, how did you win hearts and minds?

John James: Yeah, so it’s probably a little bit harder now post-COVID but, prior to [00:07:40] COVID, I actually got out and I kicked the tires. I went to every single brand across the group, UK, Ireland, Intercontinental Europe. I [00:07:50] visited, at least one branch within the brand, ’cause some of these- Yeah … brands have multiple entities.

John James: And I made sure, got out, shook everyone’s hand, introduced myself. And they might have only been [00:08:00] 30, 60-minute meetings with the finance team, walking around the stores, trying to understand the underlying businesses. Because if you don’t understand the underlying business, [00:08:10] how are you going to be a business partner to them?

John James: if you get 20 million in today on the cash pool, you need to understand why that came in. What’s the impact from the business? If you’re hedging a [00:08:20] year forward, why are you buying US dollars? what is the company using those, US dollars for? If you aren’t able to answer those questions, I would struggle to believe that you can be [00:08:30] the best business partner to those businesses.

Mike: Yeah. And that networking approach, I know that was- Yeah … one element of, that helped you for, more senior leadership as you [00:08:40] moved on to the next role and things like that. But just, i- is that what you would say network? Or what other things?

John James: Yeah. network is a huge, piece of the puzzle.

John James: you [00:08:50] need to go out. we spoke earlier about building your internal brand value in terms of being someone who delivers, but you have to do that externally as well. Yeah. Go to events, go for coffees, go [00:09:00] to the Treasury Career Corner, for example, and really just try to increase the breadth of people who will say, “JJ, Mike, great guys.”

John James: You know- Totally … have a chat with [00:09:10] them. Yeah. Yeah. Do an interview with them. Other things that I would recommend are, get a good mentor. So back to the ICT again, there’s a fantastic [00:09:20] mentorship program. That’s something that helped me, as I progressed my career. We’ll circle, back to that.

John James: Get a good coach, if you can. There’s a, maybe a couple of things that I pieced [00:09:30] together is be curious Be self-driven and be someone who’s reliable. And if you can piece those all together, you can really be someone who is dependable. Yeah. [00:09:40] Deliver that, deliver, results consistently.

Mike: Yeah. And then from there you… what was your next move? ‘Cause how long were you at Grafton, you

John James: said? At Grafton, it [00:09:50] got roughly about six years- I think, off the top of my head. Okay. So what

Mike: happened

John James: next? What happened next was actually I went and got my mentor, and I said to my mentor, “I want to be a group [00:10:00] treasurer.”

John James: Worked through with that mentor in terms of boxes that I needed to tick on my CV, and there were three kind of big boxes that I needed to shade in a little bit more, give them a [00:10:10] firm tick. And that’s when the opportunity at DCC came along, and I actually knew the group treasurer through networking.

John James: So that made the interview more conversational. HR [00:10:20] had to jump in a little bit to try and put a little bit of structure on it- … but it was, it w- it was more of a chat. So that, that really helped us, was break down those barriers as you’re going into an in- interview and be a little bit more relaxed. [00:10:30]

Mike: And who are DCC, for the, audience again?

John James: DCC now are, an energy company. But back when I joined, they were in healthcare technology. They were more of a conglomerate- and they were [00:10:40] focused on kind of Europe and North America in particular. So I joined DCC. I think I was maybe the 14th or 15th person in group treasury at the time, so a mu- a much bigger unit.[00:10:50]

John James: And I focused on treasury controllership, people management, kind of items on my CV that I And funding as well. Items on my CV that I really wanted to firm up a little bit to [00:11:00] ultimately position myself to become a group treasurer.

Mike: Yeah. Fill in the breadth of things. And, you went in as a group treasury controller.

Mike: Yeah. How different was that to some of the [00:11:10] other roles? As you said, you’d done your front office back at- Yeah … IBM. You’d done a broader role- Yeah … at Grafton.

John James: So i- in my first week in DCC, I, we acquired [00:11:20] I think maybe two businesses, and we had an extra few hundred bank accounts.

John James: So I knew that I was moving into a faster paced team.

John James: And, one thing that really impressed me about DCC [00:11:30] is the pace at which they integrated acquisitions. Because once they do an acquisition, they’re onto the next, they’re onto the next. There’s no kind of, [00:11:40] “Let’s sit back, let’s think, let’s integrate, and then move on.” It is a bit of an acquisition machine.

Mike: And you were just talking there about your mentor and ticking the boxes- Yeah … but you were then [00:11:50] also, in a softer wa- in a sort of softer skills way, you were moving from delivery of work- to actually then leading others, influencing other people. [00:12:00] What was that like for you, or how did you do that?

Mike: Again, was it meeting people over a coffee or what else?

John James: Yeah. So as I joined DCC u- during COVID, so I actually didn’t meet a lot of [00:12:10] my colleagues- face to face for roughly a year, I suspect. and moving from that kind of delivery mindset and graft into kind of managing and hiring and managing a [00:12:20] team, I suppose I had to develop my own leadership skills a little bit more.

John James: I’d always been used, and we mentioned a few minutes ago about influencing people, but indirectly, they don’t report to you. So [00:12:30] now I was in a position where I can actually directly influence people, and I developed a kind of coaching and mentoring leadership style, which is probably no surprise given my continued reference to it, [00:12:40] where I’d hire someone based on their potential.

John James: I’d bring them in, I’d sit with them. I, wouldn’t micromanage, but I would sit with them and bring them through the processes [00:12:50] in great detail. But once they were comfortable, I would stand back and give them full responsibilities to own their role, take responsibility for it, and bring it forward.

John James: Absolutely, I’m there if [00:13:00] they have a question, happy to jump back in, but once I hand it over, they’re in control. They need to get satisfaction from delivering the process from A to Z.

Mike: Yeah. You’re done. And then how [00:13:10] long were you there?

John James: in DCC for a couple of years.

Mike: Yeah.

John James: Very strange time, obviously, being, in COVID.

John James: so didn’t quite get out to, to kick the tires, unfortunately, like I did in [00:13:20] my previous role. But look, that we all have to adapt to, that, that point in our careers and that point in our life. ‘Cause what came next I

Mike: know, but, you can ex- explain to the audience. [00:13:30]

John James: Yeah. So again, my network helped.

John James: I was headhunted in to Glan Dimplex as group treasurer, but I know for a fact someone in the background, put my name forward to the [00:13:40] headhunter. And so you can see that has played a huge part into kind of that networking, that brand value. Yeah. So I joined Glan Dimplex as group treasurer. The incumbent was there [00:13:50] for 36 years.

Mike: Wow.

John James: I was joining a four-person team. There was an open role, but when I went in, I was, I was told the open role wouldn’t be filled. The, the [00:14:00] expectation was I would bring in a system and therefore be able to manage the same function, but with three people During that first week, the assistant treasurer, I was told he was gonna transition into another [00:14:10] role within the group.

John James: So I was lo- losing him, albeit on a transition basis. And on my fourth day, the treasury analyst, left on the spot. Nothing to do with me. There was an [00:14:20] obvious joke there, but I can, I assure you it, it had nothing to do with me.

Mike: But suddenly you’d gone from a full room

John James: to, like, where does everybody sit?

John James: Yeah. Where’s the team gone? Now, [00:14:30] thankfully the incumbent, he stayed on an extra few months just to allow me to get one of the hires in. Yeah. So he stayed on a few months. I got a treasury analyst hired. He retired. [00:14:40] I’m very grateful that he did stick around for a few months, and then I, hired a, a, a treasury assistant later in, in my first year.

John James: So I essentially went on a month- [00:14:50] multi-year transformation. Yeah. Year one was people. Getting the team was obviously the first priority, and then bedding them in the second year was around processes. So I’d [00:15:00] inherited a multi-currency hedging program, multi-currency cash pool, multi-currency in-house bank, trade finance program.

John James: So back when I was in [00:15:10] Grafton, I had a relatively clean slate, whereas when I was in Glen Dimplex, I would use the saying it was i- it’s like trying to change the tires and the engine of a car as it plows down- [00:15:20] As it

Mike: drives … the motorway. Yeah, drive. what do… And, Glen Dimplex, what do they do

John James: or what are they?

John James: Gl- Glen Di- Glen Dimplex are a leader in electrical heating and cooling solutions. So [00:15:30] probably brands that you might recognize are Dimplex in the UK, the kind of panel radiators are one of the, one of the biggest, items that they would sell. Heat pumps, bit in consumer appliances as [00:15:40] well, but they range from everything from China, Australia, New Zealand, across Europe and into North America.

John James: So the-

Mike: Yeah …

John James: the, the reach is quite extensive, and you have to know a [00:15:50] little bit about treasury in each of those geographies, which makes it a little bit more challenging, particularly on the hedging side and cash management side of things.

Mike: Now, you’d, got that group treasurer role. Yeah.

Mike: I [00:16:00] know it was a little bit head-spinning because you’re like, “Here’s the group treasurer role, and here is a team. Oh no, they’re all leaving.” But it wasn’t you, as you say, it was the thing. But, what were the biggest [00:16:10] challenges that you inherited or that you took over sort of thing?

John James: Pr- probably the biggest challenge is I inherited a very complex function-

Mike: [00:16:20] Right

John James: with no systems. So everything was done manual. And I actually, when I went in, and obviously I had an idea of what I was going into, but when I went in and I found out how [00:16:30] extensive and complex those those programs were, but they were all completed via email, Excel, I found it very hard to believe that this was a sustainable model for a [00:16:40] treasury function because it was so dependent on people being there every day and keeping it moving over and over again.

John James: So it was quite evident that like a tr- a TMS is, [00:16:50] was gonna be a game changer here, but I just had to go through that, those, those years first. There was no point in trying to do a TMS in year one when I don’t have a te- team around me. There was no point in doing a [00:17:00] TMS in year two when the processes could be significantly improved, but still relatively manual.

John James: Clean them up, get everyone into the hedging program, get everyone into the cash pool, and [00:17:10] get those processes in very good shape to bring them into a TMS, because there’s no point bringing bad processes into a treasury management system.

Mike: Yeah. Where was the greatest [00:17:20] resistance, if you like? Was it, where, were the blockers or obstacles?

John James: The blockers or obstacles w- was trying to find the time within the team to [00:17:30] implement a treasury management system. As I said, like a car going down the motorway, you have to tell the team, you’re at 100% capacity now. We now need to do a [00:17:40] TMS.”

Mike: Yeah, good luck with that.

John James: And it’s a roughly a year and a half of a project, so we now need to squeeze it in.

John James: So again, to, to one of my points earlier, trying to get those early wins. I [00:17:50] focus on a few pieces of project and brought those to go live early on. Yeah. So while the project may not have been go live, a few processes were just to try and squeeze out [00:18:00] an hour or two every day just to free the team up that little bit to go after the next piece.

John James: And once they went after the next piece, that freed up another hour or two, and suddenly had this little bit of a [00:18:10] cycle. So by the time you got to go live, it wasn’t big bang. You had brought many processes through to go live, early to, just to squeeze out that little bit of extra time. And look, we did [00:18:20] have to roll up our sleeves.

John James: It’s inevitable. But just trying to get those early wins and to ensure the team doesn’t have fatigue as well. If you go 18 months with no [00:18:30] improvement other than extra workload and extra stress on everyone- Yeah, it’s just gonna break you … it’s v- very hard to bring it through. Whereas if you can get a little bit of early wins, it just brings the team.

John James: it shows them, because they [00:18:40] might not have the same view on the bigger picture as the group treasurer. It shows them like, “Look, we’re going in the right direction. We’re making improvements. let’s keep going. Let’s grind it out.”

Mike: And [00:18:50] there again, you’ve gotten some awards over the years.

Mike: You got the… You got an Adam Smith Award for the best cash management solution. What was the problem you were trying to, or you [00:19:00] identified and then solved or, talk us through that.

John James: Yeah. So every week from senior management I would have a similar question, but just from a [00:19:10] slightly different angle.

John James: So the biggest thing that I wanted to solve is not having any more questions from the CFO, from the senior management, et cetera. So [00:19:20] I interfaced the treasury management system into Microsoft Power BI, and I built a suite of dashboards that allowed the C-suite to self-serve, and I wrapped that [00:19:30] project around the title Self-Service Treasury Analytics.

John James: So I built the dashboards in a way that I’d, actually written all the questions in my first year that the, the C-suite had [00:19:40] asked me, and I built a dashboard around can the dashboard answer every single one of these questions? And once I got down to the bottom of the page, I said, “Yes, I can.” The process was so [00:19:50] automated when I was on two weeks of holidays, all the reports would update overnight automatically, to the point where the CFO would jokingly say, “We could replace you with a cardboard cutout.”

John James: [00:20:00] So thankfully he didn’t.

Mike: Yeah.

John James: But just to answer the question, I wanted to ensure that the CFO, C-suite, senior management, they have all the data at their fingertips, and they can slice and dice it to [00:20:10] their, it’s, to their heart’s content. Okay, it removed 99% of questions, but there’s always that slightly new question- Yeah

John James: that comes in, and I would edit the dashboard, so at least it wouldn’t become a [00:20:20] recurring question. And I actually brought that kind of, that mindset into a more general finance project where I looked across… [00:20:30] I’m trying to remember now. I think it was maybe over 500 branches, maybe a few hundred more on top of that, and I looked at the financial performance of every single [00:20:40] branch over an extended period and presented it to C-suite.

John James: And that allowed them to go in and slice and dice and made strategic decisions, across the group. So [00:20:50] it’s something that I would strongly recommend for, anyone in corporate treasury is to broaden beyond treasury when you can. I completed a few secondments as well into, more [00:21:00] general finance roles, finance manager, et cetera.

John James: And it just, it comes back to the point in understanding the business. You get a, a, a, a greater breadth- Yeah … of [00:21:10] understanding of the business. You have a, a wider skill set. You have a greater appreciation f- for what you’re doing, and it can only help you progress your treasury career.

Mike: Joking aside, you say about [00:21:20] the cardboard cutout sort of thing.

Mike: Some, some treasury guy folks are worried they’re gonna be automated out of- Yeah … out of some roles. But how important was the sort of [00:21:30] human side of the project compared with the technology itself? how did they balance out?

John James: Yeah. essentially you have to present the dashboards, the technology [00:21:40] to the s- senior management, to the wider finance team, to the underlying business units.

John James: Again, you don’t just send an email saying, “This is live. Have a crack at it.” Power BI was [00:21:50] in its infancy in 2015. Yeah. A lot of these individuals had to be upskilled and ex- and, br- walked through the process of how to use the new technology. And I actually went on [00:22:00] a road show, maybe a road show is a, a, a firm word, but I went around to each of the businesses back again on the same loop again, and I [00:22:10] demonstrated the treasury management system, the treasury report, but also those branch reports as well.

John James: I can remember distinctly being in front of one CEO of a business, and he gave me [00:22:20] 15 minutes of his time. That’s all he could give, 15 minutes max. After five minutes, he walked out to his PA and said, “Cancel the next hour. I want to get stuck into this report.” [00:22:30]

Mike: Wow.

John James: Because he, in his mind he was like, the C-suite are looking at these numbers, so they can see these percentages, they can see this trend.

John James: I need to know [00:22:40] what this data is telling them, because they’re gonna start asking me questions about

Mike: it. So the- Ni- nice upsell there. That was,

John James: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. And they actually made then decisions on, based on that as well? [00:22:50]

John James: Exactly, yeah. Because, then later on in the road show someone had said to me, “I know why I’ve been asked these questions, ’cause it’s pointing, it’s screaming out on this [00:23:00] page.”

John James: So they all wanted a piece of it. I gave everyone access, but only to their specific piece of the puzzle, and it allowed them to look at their own data better, which is [00:23:10] remarkable because they’re the ones who submit the data to head office. But I was just churning it through the BI model and visualizing in a different way- Yeah

John James: than the typical finance [00:23:20] team would, with tables and very, basic Excel charts and graphs. It’s when you move into more visualization part of Power BI, you can really start to see [00:23:30] trends, start to see outliers, and that’s where those strategic questions come from the C-suite. Why is that branch in the top right corner or the bottom left corner when everyone else is clustered in the middle?[00:23:40]

Mike: So w- if you’re not a Power BI user-

John James: Yeah …

Mike: but you’re out there in treasury listening today- Yeah … you listen very well because you’ve got these skills, but you don’t have those skills, how do you [00:23:50] recommend they give clarity to the reports or, just to the general work that they’re delivering and things?

John James: Yeah. O- one thing that I’m quite worried about for the next generation [00:24:00] is you ask AI any question, you pretty much have an answer within 60 seconds. So o- one thing that I would encourage people to do, even if you don’t have the skill set on the tech side- [00:24:10] You can still get down and understand the underlying detail and why why a process works a certain way.

John James: Because if you start relying on that 60-second answer, you’re not really going to get down into the [00:24:20] weeds and be able to build it up. So even if you don’t know how to build it, you should at least understand the cogs that are driving the engine behind it.

Mike: Yeah. they can… And you’re right, [00:24:30] it, it can hallucinate. We- one of the key things we did with the ACT session, and Victoria Underwood from Imperial Brands, she was brilliant. But she actually said that in- when we [00:24:40] were talking about technology, and that was a key theme of the session. She said she fed in some FX some deal, and it came back and she went, “Hang on.”

Mike: And she looked at it and [00:24:50] she went, “That’s wrong.” It’s read the wrong side of the deal. And she went back- Yeah … in and went, “That’s wrong.” And it went, “Oh yeah, I lied.” And she just went, “What?” “Oh yeah, I just… [00:25:00] Yeah, I’m sorry about that. Yeah, I, lied.” And she was like, “Hang on.” If I hadn’t… If she hadn’t known the fundamentals of that FX, she could have taken that as gospel [00:25:10] and gone to the, “Oh yeah, here we go,” and the, “What?

Mike: Hello.” To- that’s a big danger, isn’t it?

John James: A- absolutely. I can remember there was a f- a formula error in a report that I was [00:25:20] given at one stage. I looked at it for 10 seconds, I went, “That’s wrong.” H- have a look at it. Because you need to be able, as, as group treasurer, to look at something and inherently know if it’s right or wrong- Yeah

John James: [00:25:30] by some of the big, the big numbers that are jumping out on the page. And, that’s, the fear also that I have is that people start churning through, AI models and [00:25:40] E- Excel and technology, just become overly reliant on it, and they don’t actually step back and think about what they’re sending.

Mike: Yeah.

John James: And I would always say, to anyone that’s within my [00:25:50] team, I say, “Think about the question you’re gonna be asked. If you send that to a CFO, to a group treasurer, what’s jumping out on the page? What could they come back and ask you?” And [00:26:00] try to send them an insight in terms of what drove that, what, what changed, what happened.

John James: Yeah. Rather than sending it, getting the response back, and then answering it. Be proactive. Give [00:26:10] them the answer before they even ask the question.

Mike: And I want, to get onto Elevate, but before I do- Sure … you’ve talked a number of times, and, again, I shared a stage with four [00:26:20] amazing treasury professionals who are all deeply involved with the Irish Association of Corporate Treasury, IACT.

Mike: What led to you becoming involved in about, and [00:26:30] then, you become president. So talk us through that. Yeah.

John James: Yeah, I, was asked to join the committee to build out the young treasurers pillar.

Mike: Yeah.

John James: So the association, when I [00:26:40] joined roughly five years ago, we had about 400 members, and we had quite a significant portion of those members were very senior, which is fantastic.

John James: But that next [00:26:50] generation, the, the proportion was maybe out of sync of where it should be. So I came in and I think I held three young treasurer events in my first year, and I had over 200 people [00:27:00] attend them, and that really drove a huge membership drive and also, and, at the same time, other people were working on, on, on EDI.

John James: So over the coming years, I really built [00:27:10] out a young treasurer pillar, and we went from 400 members to roughly 700 members. The conference, I think, roughly doubled in size as well. Look, I’m not taking credit for it at [00:27:20] all.

Mike: Yeah.

John James: But we really went on a, a, a- Invested in

Mike: it. Yeah …

John James: we really invested and we really doubled down and really grew the association and brought that next generation through, enhanced our [00:27:30] conference offering, enhanced our, EDI pillar as well.

John James: And in 2024, I w- I became president of the IACT, probably a little [00:27:40] bit, earlier than I expected. But I suppose I come in, I’d shown the initiative. I really rolled up my sleeves. I got stuck in and I delivered I [00:27:50] then, having completed my presidency, I was like, what’s next? I have a few years ahead of me.”

John James: It’s a seven-year term. So I turned my attention to ed- the [00:28:00] educational side of things, and I introduced a graduate program. So where we bring people from Trinity into secondments in treasury departments across Dublin, and then [00:28:10] ultimately g- support in becoming full-time in treasury We also brought in a professional diploma in corporate treasury in collaboration with the Institute of Bankers.[00:28:20]

John James: We felt that’s a fantastic relationship for us ’cause w- we’re a committee of volunteers. Where obviously the IoB are a more professional organization, for want of [00:28:30] a better word, but they have the structure in place- Yeah … to deliver education. I completed the DCU, graduate certificate in corporate treasury, and followed that on with the MSC in investment [00:28:40] treasury and banking, and they were huge in my career.

John James: So I’ve always had a huge reliance on combining education and practition to accelerate my career, and it’s something [00:28:50] that I wanted to give back, and to, to give that next generation opportunities to enhance their education. The ACT have a fantastic structure in place, and we were trying to say, what could [00:29:00] we do on our side of the IRC, but not maybe directly compete with them?

John James: Where’s the niche?” And the obvious answer was in that next generation. So we focus on [00:29:10] treasury analysts, treasury managers, and we put together a professional diploma to be very practical and to give the- Yeah … give them the skillset to move on in their career. And, [00:29:20] while they deliver the theory, both myself and Jason, who’s the, the other lecturer, and, he was the 2025 president.

John James: While we deliver the theory, our focus is on the [00:29:30] application in terms of, how does a group treasurer think, what are the board gonna ask. The theory’s there, it’s grounded in theory, but we always focus on that practical side of things [00:29:40] to really give the students the greatest opportunity to progress their careers.

Mike: And thrilled to say, this podcast is part of the coursework.

John James: And that’s- Absolutely. you were, you… You [00:29:50] were very kind to give me a, a long list of podcasts that were applicable to the various topics that I was lecturing in. And I, received fantastic feedback. People were bringing them in, [00:30:00] you’ll be happy to hear, in the exam as part of their answers.

Mike: And where do you think there is the biggest gap between, that’s the academic side and learning- Yeah

Mike: treasury and then actually doing it. Where’s the… How [00:30:10] do you bridge that gap? Obviously podcast, but, but other than that, w- where do you think that there is a gap?

John James: Probably the, the gap is, excuse me. The [00:30:20] gap is I suppose taking that theoretical insight and then having, that self-drive to go and apply it in practice.

John James: Yeah. And look, sometimes it can [00:30:30] be very hap- very difficult to do that. You mightn’t be in the role to allow yourself to apply some of it. But this is where you need to have discussions with your manager, express [00:30:40] your expectations, have the patience that we mentioned earlier on. But I…

John James: if you’re trying to look to apply the theory further and move up the career path, [00:30:50] I would say that, imitation is the greatest form of flattery in terms of if you want to be a treasury manager, look at some treasury managers that you aspire to, to be [00:31:00] similar to. Walk like them, talk like them, dress like them.

John James: Essentially imitate them as much as you can. Take little pieces of how they walk into a room, how they communicate, [00:31:10] how they interact with other people. And if you can improve yourself and imitate them 1% every day, just like your pension, that’ll start to compound over the years.

Mike: Yeah.

John James: And allows you to the…[00:31:20]

John James: Allows you to develop and then bring that theory in, bring that technical skillset to then start applying it- Yeah … as you move throughout your career.

Mike: Now, obviously you’ve got a [00:31:30] thoroughly practical treasury experience and things like that, rather than the consulting. Yeah. And we’re gonna, talk about Elevate, and the thing is, one of the things I don’t, if someone’s listening to this and they’re- People [00:31:40] have asked me before, they’ve come from consultancy, they want to, be on

Mike: the podcast. I’m like, “Actually, you haven’t got a practical treasury, background before it.” You’ve got that in spades, You’ve got all that. So what prompted you to then [00:31:50] establish Elevate Treasury Advisory and, talk us through that.

John James: Sure. It- it’s been something on my mind for several years and I, said early [00:32:00] days in treasury I wasn’t enjoying it and some of that was I don’t like BAU.

John James: So a lot of those- Yeah … manual processes you’re doing over and over again. And I came to the conclusion [00:32:10] that if I was to chase that transformation, that project that f- that funding program buzz, so, from essentially getting something big over the line. If I have to chase [00:32:20] that for the rest of my career, I want to reveal my age, but I’ve quite a bit of a road- Yeah

John James: ahead of me. Yeah. I’d have to, I’d have to rotate through a lot of companies to do three, five years, go again. [00:32:30] Three, five years, go again. I said why put myself through that when I can get that buzz several times a year across several clients?” [00:32:40] So it was wanting to get that, that little bit of buzz, controlling my own destiny.

John James: And ultimately coming back to those accountants and [00:32:50] getting to know the businesses, in more depth, wanting to build my own business as well. So y- yes, obviously day-to-day I’m doing doing the consultancy, doing the advisory, and [00:33:00] that’s something that I really do enjoy. But what really excites me is trying to build a business over the coming years.

Mike: And has that changed the way you look at the role of a group treasurer maybe being, standing [00:33:10] independently?

John James: It’s changed a lot about how I think about a lot of things. So I need to be more ruthless with my time. I have been getting better with that, and need to become even [00:33:20] more ruthless a- as I go forward.

John James: One thing that really resonates with me now in terms of how a group treasurer thinks and acts is impact. [00:33:30] So anytime I was doing a big project, I would always include in the business case, what is the impact? What is the value add? Why are we doing this? What are we gonna get out of it? But [00:33:40] now from my own perspective, I have to demonstrate why would you work with me?

John James: What’s the impact? So that really makes me think a lot harder about why would you implement the cash pool? [00:33:50] Why would you implement a hedging program? And while I always had that as part of my pitch to the C-suite or in a business case or whatever the, whatever it might be, it’s really made me think [00:34:00] even harder about it and how, much treasury is a strategic driver of enterprise value.

Mike: And what treasury problems are you seeing? Are you seeing them, [00:34:10] businesses struggle with technology or processes or people or all of the above? you’re seeing… You’re going to different organizations now. What, what’s coming to the forefront? [00:34:20]

John James: Yeah. So maybe there’s two answer to this que- two answers to this question.

John James: The first is a lot of businesses don’t have time to go after the [00:34:30] cash management structure, the hedging program. They’re just so consumed with everything else they’re doing, and you just need that little bit of a lift to get them over the line and that, that support for [00:34:40] a defined period.

John James: And then on the s- then on the other side is the scale of, technology. I’m involved in two significant [00:34:50] TMS implementations. They’re up to kind of 18 months in length. And even internally on their side, they have to do a huge lift, and they need that external support to really [00:35:00] get it over the line.

John James: and that’s where I like to think I bring an interesting blend in. I have the corporate treasury experience for 15 years, ex-group treasurer, but [00:35:10] I also have that technical skill set. So I bring the best of both worlds, I, like to think. And, not, I just, I don’t just implement what I’ve been asked to implement.[00:35:20]

John James: I try to give that little bit of advice. Have you thought of this? Or would you consider doing it this way? Or would you like to maybe throw that process on its head and do it slightly differently? [00:35:30] Because this is the time to reset. When you’re doing a massive implementation, it’s the time to reset some of your processes.

John James: And that’s why I took that second year in Glan Dimplex to get the process in good shape. If you [00:35:40] bring poor processes and poor data into a system, you’re not gonna get the best out of it. So I do try to challenge my clients in terms of you might want to rethink that, or have you considered, [00:35:50] X, Y, and Z?

Mike: And if you were to sit down with yourself-

John James: Yeah …

Mike: way back in the day some of your early days at IBM, what would you tell yourself then or, as [00:36:00] you’re coming up? Any advice that you would give to yourself theoretically?

John James: I– we covered a point on patience, so-

Mike: Yeah …

John James: I jumped the gun a couple of times and [00:36:10] accepted roles and then took, took counteroffers.

John James: So I was probably a little bit too aggressive in trying to pursue my career at times, where I did need to bed in that a little bit longer, [00:36:20] and that actually paid dividend in due course. Okay, maybe not initially being patient, but, y-it does compound a-as time goes on. I would get a coach [00:36:30] and a mentor sooner.

John James: It was– I o- I obviously timed it quite well going to group treasurer role, but I didn’t have anyone like that in my earlier career. And maybe they would have been an, an individual who [00:36:40] would’ve said, “Calm down, you’re going a little bit too fast here.” You know- Yeah … just give something that extra year.

John James: Because, you gotta appreciate that while your manager might be trying to support you as best they [00:36:50] can, there are payroll cycles, there’s just a natural movement of people in and out of business. Just because you’ve knocked on their door today doesn’t mean by the end of the week they’re gonna have something for you.

John James: [00:37:00] So just having that little bit of patience can be key, and that’s where the mentor, that coach can really come in.

Mike: And is that something you’d say to someone who they want to be a group treasurer, [00:37:10] but they- Yeah

Mike: perhaps can’t see the route from where they are today? that, that– it seems to cover a lot of that, but-

John James: Yeah …

Mike: anything else?

John James: Yeah. It g-gives you that, a little bit of that career path. And I’d blend in [00:37:20] the trying to get a qualification under your belt. Yeah. Look, there are some fantastic individuals who have built massive careers, massive businesses with no education.

John James: But for the [00:37:30] majority of people, it is a proven route if you go and you get your accountancy qualification, you get a treasury qualification. There are very few treasurers that you know or that I know that are not an [00:37:40] accountant or don’t have a treasury qualification. They have either/or, and some have both.

John James: Yeah. So it is a proven, path to success. [00:37:50] And I would challenge people to, to try and broaden their experience. I know we mentioned the wider business, but within treasury as well you have your [00:38:00] specialist roles and you have your, generalist roles. And neither are the correct answer, but I would challenge people to have both Go for a specialist role, do it for a few years.

John James: Go for a generalist role, do it for a few [00:38:10] years, and that’ll allow you to fine-tune your career to exactly what you’re interested in.

Mike: Yeah. So what’s next for yourself and Elevate Treasury? What where’s the [00:38:20] future

John James: with Elevate? I’m only in my fourth month, Mike- Yeah … so I’m still trying to settle in and, battle with the widened skill set of being an entrepreneur.

John James: I never thought [00:38:30] I’d say this, but I actually miss my group, IT function. In terms of even this morning, my, my laptop turned on with a BitLocker warning, and I was like, “What is going on here?” And I know [00:38:40] you challenged to get, you had the challenge of getting your own camera on this morning, so- Yeah.

John James: And I do miss the, I do miss the wider corporate function, when I’m in times of need. Yeah. I suppose- Having that ph- [00:38:50]

Mike: having that phone number to call and go help desk?”

John James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I am the help desk now. Yeah. I suppose- for Elevate Treasury, I [00:39:00] suppose the biggest prize is, I think, on the technology side of things.

John James: Yeah. you brought it into the questioning. Most mid-cap and large corporates have significant investments i- in [00:39:10] treasury technology, and that’s something that I’m looking at intensely, intensively at the minute. and I might try to reshape Elevate a little bit o- over the coming [00:39:20] years to really focus on, supporting corporates on the technology side of things.

John James: at the minute I offer advisory, fractional support, treasury services, but… [00:39:30] treasury technology service. Yeah. But I think I’ll skew more towards the technology side as- All right … as time goes on.

Mike: Yeah, specializing. Okay. So we’re gonna put your LinkedIn details in the show notes, and it’s [00:39:40] our weekly takeaway.

Mike: Again we’ve touched on it all the way through the show, but early stage of your career, what advice would You someone sitting with a coffee on a Thur- on a Friday morning, they listen to this. Mid [00:39:50] stage or senior, give… What, what advice would you give to the range of folk out there?

John James: Yeah.

John James: Maybe the last thing I’ll say is just on communication, soft skills. [00:40:00]

Mike: Love it.

John James: on the communication, as you progress, your te- And this is maybe to answer one of your previous questions a little bit as well. Yeah. As you progress, your, technical ability gets you in the room. [00:40:10] Your ability to communicate keeps you in the room and gets a decision made.

Mike: that’s it. Mic drop moment. Love it. Thank you very much, John James. Great to chat to you and, [00:40:20] really looking forward to seeing you again, very soon.

John James: Thanks, Mike. I appreciate it. All the best. Okay,

Mike: thanks.