Choose the Difficult Path: To Keep Growing in Treasury | Treasury Careers Podcast

Mike, CEO, The Treasury Recruitment Company: [00:00:00] So welcome to this week’s Treasury Career Corner Podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every [00:00:05] week, I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury [00:00:10] profession going to next.

Mike: In this week’s show, delighted to be joined by Anika Williams, the Head of [00:00:15] Treasury and Customer Payment Operations at Zalando Payments.

Mike: Founded in [00:00:20] Berlin in 2008, Zalando is the leading European technology platform for fashion and [00:00:25] lifestyle, connecting 62 million active customers with more than 7,000 brands across [00:00:30] 29 markets. Their business is built on a unique AI-powered data and infrastructure [00:00:35] platform, which Anika will talk about a little bit later.

Mike: But, what we want to do is go back to the [00:00:40] beginning of Anika’s career, how you first started. Discover finance and then treasury. Over to [00:00:45] you.

Anika, Head of Treasury and Customer Payment Operations at Zalando Payments: Hello. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Mike: Pleasure. [00:00:50] So how did you first start? You when you… ‘Cause you started your career at Shell, but, [00:00:55] did you think treasury was where you were gonna be?

Mike: Or talk us through.

Anika: So I [00:01:00] originally, when I started working in finance in my first jobs, I didn’t know what treasury is. Yeah. [00:01:05] I started working in accounting, and that was a great foundation, ’cause the [00:01:10] higher you get in your career, at some point in time it all comes back to the P&L and the balance sheet, and [00:01:15] it’s great to understand how accounting works, how audit works, [00:01:20] how closing processes work in your first career steps.

Anika: And then I worked in [00:01:25] various other finance func- functions where I had the first interface to treasury, and I fell in [00:01:30] love with it. I thought, I really want to work in it. But I worked in Germany, and usually [00:01:35] treasury is a headquarter function, and the headquarters of Shell were in, or [00:01:40] are still in, in London, so treasury was based in London.

Anika: So hence, [00:01:45] at some point in time I tried to move to London in order to work in [00:01:50] treasury, and that was successful, and I really, enjoyed it. And since then [00:01:55] on, I stayed in treasury ’cause in my view it’s the best finance function.

Mike: And what [00:02:00] did those early years, those early roles if you like, what do, what did they…

Mike: If you’re looking back [00:02:05] now, what did they teach you about treasury?

Anika: I think [00:02:10] they taught me a lot of things that the treasury professional who [00:02:15] starts their career in treasury doesn’t necessarily know and learn as [00:02:20] part of their role, but they needed to make a holistic assessment of financial [00:02:25] risks, of financial costs and benefits of particular [00:02:30] businesses.

Anika: And so you need to, or you learn to connect the dots between [00:02:35] what does my P&L and balance sheet look like? What impact does that have on my financial statements? [00:02:40] What impact does a certain business cas- case have on planning [00:02:45] processes, which tax implications are there? And [00:02:50] putting all of these pieces of the puzzle together and then integrating it [00:02:55] into your treasury picture gives you a very holistic, almost CFO-like picture.[00:03:00]

Mike: And those moves themselves, because I know that you did some moves overseas and you were moving [00:03:05] different countries and things. Did you plan that or was it just they came along and you said, I’ll take that [00:03:10] opportunity.” How did it work?

Anika: So I grew up in Berlin, [00:03:15] and ever since I was little, I always wanted to live abroad at some point in time.[00:03:20]

Anika: And I studied in Korea, and I fell in love with this [00:03:25] part of Asia. So when I started working for an international company and the opportunity [00:03:30] came along, I really pushed for this opportunity to become real, to [00:03:35] go back to Asia. And hence I started where I worked in a service [00:03:40] center in Malaysia for a year, which was a great experience, extremely different from the [00:03:45] usual country or headquarters experience.

Anika: And also that was the time of, [00:03:50] offshoring, right? Like, where service centers were popping up or where big [00:03:55] corporates were pushing a lot of operational activities into service centers. So it [00:04:00] was a great opportunity to be part of the journey, and in those days it was also considered a good [00:04:05] foundation for future leadership roles.

Mike: , What was the biggest difference for you being out there? how did… You say it [00:04:10] was very different. What do you mean?

Anika: The [00:04:15] incentives an employee gets are very different. So your salary structures are [00:04:20] different, your, performance rankings in terms of how your performance is ranked is [00:04:25] different.

Anika: So in a usual headquarter function your [00:04:30] performance is based on how well you execute, but in a service center it’s a lot more [00:04:35] around how you execute, when you execute, how do you streamline, how do you automate.

Anika: [00:04:40] And that was, I think, the service centers where, or business operational centers, [00:04:45] they’re called different in different entities, we’re further ahead on that journey of [00:04:50] automation compared to the usual onshore experience- onshore [00:04:55] locations.

Mike: I’d spoke to Felix recently at ABB and, it was a [00:05:00] re-interview, if you like. I caught up with him, he’d been on before, and he loves his tech. But one of the things [00:05:05] with the show was we talked about insourcing, and actually what they’re to- [00:05:10] doing is actually bringing… They’re not letting some of those operations go overseas.

Mike: They’re [00:05:15] saying, actually when they go overseas, we then have this merry-go-round of recruiting. Actually, we get some [00:05:20] people here at the center, and actually we have greater control. We can look after the talent and things.” [00:05:25] have you seen a similar thing, or what was that like?

Anika: Yeah. Staff churn in service [00:05:30] centers is incredibly higher than in onshore locations.[00:05:35]

Anika: And that also drives how you plan your work there, how [00:05:40] you plan resources, how staff development looks like. So it’s a very different [00:05:45] approach to your operational excellence and to talent management. [00:05:50]

Mike: And working for a group like Shell and I’ve known, known some of the Shell [00:05:55] team and things like that particularly.

Mike: You came back to Shell in London as deputy treasurer, EMEA, and [00:06:00] things. What was that like as a role?

Anika: So I first started [00:06:05] working on the trading floor in London. So I moved to London from Germany and looked [00:06:10] at working capital, where I worked very closely with various treasury functions [00:06:15] as part of, Shell trading in London.

Anika: And that was a great experience because you learned a [00:06:20] lot about trading, and which is obviously a huge driver for, [00:06:25] for the financial success of various energy companies around the world. [00:06:30] And, then I did my ACT qualification ’cause I decided I want to [00:06:35] stay at treasury and then started working at corporate treasury, and then, was [00:06:40] promoted at some point in time to deputy treasurer.

Anika: And what I [00:06:45] really enjoyed, and what I didn’t appreciate at the time because you are in the center of [00:06:50] excellence, is the level of excellence at Shell. Shell is one of the biggest corporate [00:06:55] treasuries in the world, so you see a lot of different pockets of [00:07:00] treasury, and I was just amazed at the level of experience.

Anika: [00:07:05] And talking about staff turnover at service centers where some people only stay for two, three months, or sometimes [00:07:10] don’t show up at all to, to their first work, day of work. And then in Shell treasury in [00:07:15] London where you had people that worked there for 40 years. Yeah. And you’re not [00:07:20] talking months of corporate experience.

Anika: You’re talking decades, [00:07:25] and, that just really drives excellence, and you learn a lot, [00:07:30] and I really, enjoyed it. But I only really truly appreciate it when I left.

Mike: And [00:07:35] do you, see, though, again, when I’d recruited for Shell, in previous years, [00:07:40] some people just said, “No I feel I’ll be too small a [00:07:45] part of a,” what is it?

Mike: big machine.” A too smaller cog, if you like. “I want a bigger role,” and things [00:07:50] like that. Did you never feel about that? Or how do you, when you’re coaching people and things like that, you [00:07:55] didn’t feel like that?

Anika: So it’s true that in big companies [00:08:00] work is more segmented.

Anika: So you can compare it to a lake and an ocean, right?

Anika: so [00:08:05] in a company like Shell, one area in a lot [00:08:10] of depth, but not in a lot of width. Yeah. And in smaller companies you see a lot of [00:08:15] breadth, right? but not so deep because it’s, they simply don’t have these complicated or a lot of the [00:08:20] complex stuff simply isn’t, as sophisticated as you would have it in big international [00:08:25] companies.

Anika: But I think it’s also part of the reason, I think, why I [00:08:30] also was successful in the past is because you try to look beyond your role. You go for lunch with [00:08:35] people, you have knowledge exchanges, you ask a lot, you try to understand [00:08:40] different worlds. And if you do that, I think companies like Shell, when I [00:08:45] worked there, give you a great opportunity to learn a lot and expand your horizon, and also figure [00:08:50] out where you want to go next and where you don’t want to go.

Mike: Yeah. It’s a really good opportunity that- [00:08:55] making the most of it. And then from Shell, you then joined DLE Group as [00:09:00] their first, building a treasury from the ground up. Can you maybe talk us through that role? [00:09:05]

Anika: Yeah, so we left Shell in 2022.

Mike: Yeah.

Anika: [00:09:10] And I’ve always worked in a big corporate, right?

Anika: I started my career in Shell and [00:09:15] worked in various functions and various seniority levels, and I wanted to [00:09:20] experience the other side of a startup, of a scale-up. And Berlin [00:09:25] is a, a city where you have a lot of startups, and I felt- going to Berlin, going [00:09:30] back to my roots, I need that experience.

Anika: So hence I took the opportunity to [00:09:35] build a treasury function in a small company that was scaling up at that time. [00:09:40] And while I was doing that, you learn a lot of the basics, coming back to [00:09:45] very- … compartmentalized work in, a big corporate. You have a big learning curve, [00:09:50] or you have a really steep learning curve on how do the basics works, how do technical [00:09:55] integrations work.

Anika: And I then quickly realized that there’s a [00:10:00] big unknown of how can you improve your work, how can you automate, how can [00:10:05] you simplify beyond the usual pivot tables and macros in Excel. [00:10:10] And hence I decided to do a data science degree. [00:10:15]

Mike: And DLE, they were real estate so quite a different industry.

Mike: What was that [00:10:20] like for you?

Anika: So DLE is a private equity-owned [00:10:25] company that- … that buys real estate and develops it. And, the ways of [00:10:30] working are a lot a lot more horizontal, right? you, get a lot more [00:10:35] done in half an hour, but also the topics you discuss are simply not that complex. Yeah.

Anika: So you have less [00:10:40] meetings. It’s a lot more going quickly to someone, discussing things, and then getting on [00:10:45] with your work. And it’s a very local experience, right? And it was very in the [00:10:50] beginning at least, Germany focused. So it, at the end it all comes [00:10:55] down to the people you work with and how do you make decisions, how can you move the business [00:11:00] forward, what are the trade-offs you’re willing to take, and that was a very [00:11:05] interesting and different experience to a big corporate, but both of them have their pros and cons.[00:11:10]

Mike: Yeah. And then talk us through the move to Zalando and how your role fits in, ’cause we were [00:11:15] just talking about you’re more focused on the payment side of the business or… talk us through the next move. [00:11:20]

Anika: Yeah, so then I worked for a few years in DLE and did my data science qualification, [00:11:25] and then the opportunity at Zalando wasn’t really planned for.

Anika: It came up, [00:11:30] and I thought it’s a great role ’cause Zalando, very [00:11:35] tech-driven. It was a great opportunity to combine the newly learned data science knowledge [00:11:40] with treasury. And Zalando Payments is 100% [00:11:45] subsidiary of Zalando. That is the payments processing unit. So every time you buy a product [00:11:50] on Zalando, the payment goes via Zalando Payments.

Anika: So we [00:11:55] manage the whole cash flow of the cash stream. And, in addition to the very [00:12:00] payment processing related activities, it’s also the typical corporate treasurer [00:12:05] role of managing the risks of a treasury function and of the [00:12:10] basically safeguarding the balance sheet. And it’s different in a way that it’s a regulated [00:12:15] institution.

Anika: Compliance is your best friend, and you just have a lot more compliance [00:12:20] related activities, and the approach you take to certain [00:12:25] activities or operational activities differ slightly than a traditional corporate treasury. [00:12:30] And also an online marketplace like Zalando has [00:12:35] unique challenges and different sort of cash movements than you would have [00:12:40] in a Shell, for example.

Anika: So in, Zalando, in a marketplace, you tend to have a [00:12:45] lot of payments and seasonal cash flows with [00:12:50] smaller values, whereas, if you’re if you ship a, a cargo full of fuel [00:12:55] oil or full of- … crude oil over the ocean, of course, it’s one big payment with [00:13:00] different risks rather than lots of small payments.

Mike: And you’ve got these millions [00:13:05] of customer transactions. How does that change how you think about treasury risk, [00:13:10] for example? How, do you break it down in your head?[00:13:15]

Anika: So first of all, in terms of [00:13:20] risk management, I think you have to differentiate between the customer [00:13:25] risk of not pay- like, and of course, Zalando [00:13:30] doesn’t require background checks when you, when you open an account and start buying. Yeah. [00:13:35] there are risks, risk checks on which payment methods you get [00:13:40] offered, and, you have risk checks in terms of which [00:13:45] suppliers you deal with, like which fashion brands, sell via your [00:13:50] platform.

Anika: But I think overall we are not… We are paying out to [00:13:55] suppliers we know, we work with regularly. So hence I think that risk [00:14:00] is pretty well-balanced in our company. The risk that is more difficult to [00:14:05] manage, but that is done via a risk management team, is steering [00:14:10] different payment methods to different customer channels.

Anika: So who [00:14:15] gets offered which payment method in order to avoid fraud and to avoid losses. [00:14:20]

Mike: Make sure it works

Anika: and that- But maximize… Exactly. Yeah. But maximize customer [00:14:25] convenient and at the end GMV

Mike: and bottom line impact. And you’re at [00:14:30] the forefront of things with now AI and technology and things.

Mike: ‘Cause, [00:14:35] just over the period of the past few years we’ve gone from treasury transformation and [00:14:40] improvement, now then digitalization, and now it’s AI. Everyone’s talking AI and tech and everything else. [00:14:45] What would you say is perhaps the biggest challenge? Is it the technology or [00:14:50] is it get the people to embrace the technology, or h- how does it work?[00:14:55]

Anika: First of all, I think AI is currently the [00:15:00] buzzword of the season, right? Yeah. people use AI, and they [00:15:05] sometimes mean things that are not necessarily AI, right? Like for example, you talk [00:15:10] machine learning. Machine learning has been around since the ’70s.

.

Anika: You talk a stochastical [00:15:15] methods, they’re not necessarily sophisticated AI methods, right?

Anika: So I, [00:15:20] feel at the moment everybody’s talking AI because it’s part of the wave, but [00:15:25] let’s see what actually materializes. As we’ve seen with EuroFinance, the [00:15:30] actual use cases are extremely limited that have been brought to life. People have lots of [00:15:35] ideas, but let’s see what the future brings.

Anika: I think the technical challenge can be [00:15:40] mastered, right? if you have the right engineers, if you have the right mindset, if you have the right [00:15:45] steering from the top, support from the top, then you can [00:15:50] develop your processes, your whatever you want to AI, right? Yeah,

Mike: yeah, [00:15:55] You, will get it done.

Anika: For me, the biggest challenge is always having the right people and the [00:16:00] right mindset to get this done, and with get this done, [00:16:05] AI is an ongoing journey, right? This is… we don’t know what AI will look [00:16:10] like in 10 years. We don’t know what automation would look like in 10 [00:16:15] years. This, I think, has changed because in the past 20 years, 10 years when s- [00:16:20] when, we started to automate, we knew what automation looks like.[00:16:25]

Anika: We knew what good looks like.

Anika: We necessarily didn’t know in every company how we get [00:16:30] there with various IT challenges, different systems, different processes, et [00:16:35] cetera, but we knew what good looks like, and I think this has changed because [00:16:40] what good looks like today, we might know what good looks like in half a year, but we don’t [00:16:45] know, what good looks like in two years, in three years.

Anika: And [00:16:50] that, I think, is quite a significant leadership challenges across the [00:16:55] industry to shape your function, to shape your [00:17:00] mindset, to shape processes, to shape what does my strategy look like. I know I’m gonna [00:17:05] implement AI, and I know I’m gonna do the best possible with the available [00:17:10] resources that creates bottom line impact, but this might change.

Anika: This is a [00:17:15] far more fluid journey than in my view it was 10 years ago.

Mike: [00:17:20] Yeah. And you talk about people and resources and things like that, and get them in the [00:17:25] right direction. So when you were at Shell and then DLE, what were the size of your teams there? Because [00:17:30] now you’ve gone up and up, and now you lead a team of 40 plus.

Mike: So [00:17:35] how has that developed, if you like?

Anika: So my first leadership experience [00:17:40] outside treasury in Shell was, when I worked in Malaysia, when I led an [00:17:45] operational team, and that were three, four people. Yeah. in addition to the usual [00:17:50] staff challenges, you had different cultures, you had different, [00:17:55] work patterns.

Anika: Or, not work patterns, but you had, Different job [00:18:00] expectations, right? The team size has changed and the roles I had, [00:18:05] but so it was usually between three and 10 people. The [00:18:10] reason why the team size now is bigger because in addition to treasury, a [00:18:15] few months ago I also took on the operations role at Zalando Payments, [00:18:20] and that’s roughly 40 people.

Mike: Wow. And what’s that like? [00:18:25]

Anika: I really enjoy it. I enjoy the [00:18:30] intellectual challenge. I enjoy learning a new part of [00:18:35] the business, side of the business, and a, a side of the business that frankly exists in [00:18:40] most companies at various degrees. Like operations is often not talked about that much, but- Yeah

Anika: [00:18:45] it’s everywhere. It’s the backbone of your infrastructure in finance. [00:18:50] And it’s exciting to see how we’re gonna develop the future there [00:18:55] together, and what’s on the radar for, for these teams. [00:19:00]

Mike: And what are your biggest leadership lessons, if you like, that you’ve learned so far? You’ve [00:19:05] taken on this bigger team and, there’s a period of evolution.

Mike: You’re learning different things. What, [00:19:10] what things have you thought, “Oh, this will work,” and it perhaps hasn’t, or the, you’ve [00:19:15] found other things, you’ve gone, “Wow, this is great, and this actually really helps everyone”?[00:19:20] [00:19:25]

Anika: My biggest leadership lessons in this [00:19:30] current role are, not that different to roles I had before.

Anika: So [00:19:35] I first of all don’t see mistakes as bad, right? I think mistakes are great to [00:19:40] learn from, and if you’re only successful in your life, you [00:19:45] maybe don’t grow as fast and as much as you grow when you make mistakes.

Anika: [00:19:50] And I also convey that message to my team, so it’s okay to make mistakes. It’s not okay to make the same mistake three, [00:19:55] four times – No … but it’s okay to make mistakes and learn. Learn from

Mike: the mistakes. Yeah.

Anika: Exactly. I think as a [00:20:00] manager and as a leader, be humble. Support your team [00:20:05] wherever you can, and be very realistic that support looks very different for [00:20:10] different people, right?

Anika: A young mother or a young parent requires different [00:20:15] support than, and a different challenge also, than a 20-year-old who [00:20:20] just graduated.

Anika: I think what I’ve learned is have patience. So [00:20:25] I’m not particularly a very patient person, but the [00:20:30] different, leadership, the different years in leadership taught me [00:20:35] to maybe stop, pause, reflect, and then act.

Anika: Whereas 10 years ago, [00:20:40] 20 years, I would have acted first.

Mike: Just go on and done it, and then, oh, yeah.

Anika: Yeah. so you [00:20:45] learn, not every email needs an immediate answer. Yeah. And [00:20:50] I think you just try to support your team, right? And you- Yeah. But one [00:20:55] big learning I would say that I didn’t appreciate in my early years is I, that I [00:21:00] usually choose my roles based on the line manager, that I always made sure, and that was [00:21:05] easy in Shell because you are in one company, you know the network.

Anika: That [00:21:10] for me it’s extremely important who I report to because I want to have a line manager that supports [00:21:15] me, that challenges me, that I can learn from, that I can, just develop.

Mike: Yeah. [00:21:20] And part of this, sort of you as a person, [00:21:25] you’ve also established a Berlin-based treasury network, which I was actually gonna talk to you about before the show.

Mike: I was [00:21:30] like, “Oh, no, I need to…” So but what’s that been like? what inspired you to do [00:21:35] that?

Anika: A friend of mine moved to [00:21:40] Berlin from London around a year before me, and both of us work in [00:21:45] treasury, and we both realized that we don’t actually know anyone in Berlin in treasury. [00:21:50] And so we just randomly reached out to people on LinkedIn, right- Yeah

Anika: [00:21:55] in similar positions, and started, basically meet up for coffee [00:22:00] to discuss challenges we have, issues we have, and from there developed a… Felix Luber from [00:22:05] HelloFresh, for example, he is really active in in [00:22:10] broadening that network in, in, in [00:22:15] having additional educational sessions being offered on [00:22:20] a reg- regular basis.

Anika: And what I like about the Treasury Network is that it’s quite small, right? So [00:22:25] it’s based on trust. It’s what stays inside the room. It’s all what’s discussed inside [00:22:30] the room. It’s not… It’s confidential. It we are on purpose not [00:22:35] inviting banks, so it’s really a self-help group, if you wish.

Mike: Yeah. [00:22:40] also we can give a shout-out to Felix.

Mike: He’s coming back on the show. Great. Yeah, he was [00:22:45] on the show before when he was with, is it Marley Spoon, I think it was? Marley [00:22:50] Spoon, yeah. So he was there, but now he’s director of group treasury over at HelloFresh, and we’re gonna do an [00:22:55] update show because we had a really good show a few years ago now, and I was like, “You’ve got to come back on.”

Mike: He was like, “All [00:23:00] right.” So now that’s it, I’ve got the leverage now. I say, “Well- … Anika said you have to come on. That’s it.” [00:23:05] just don’t tell him. that’s it.” I’d say, and so this sort [00:23:10] of this networking, and as you mentioned there, this sort of mentoring, sort [00:23:15] of thing as well. I know that you mentor some of your staff and things, helping others.

Mike: What do you [00:23:20] get from that? Because I’ve heard, we had, we’ve [00:23:25] had a number of clients on the, podcast. We had Karen van der Gesche, and she talked about, I’ve [00:23:30] always… One of my first episodes, she had a mentor. She said, “I can be mad.” I said, “What? W- [00:23:35] whoa, Hang on, you’re in treasury.

Mike: You can’t be mad.” She went, “No, I can have a, a crazy idea, run it past my [00:23:40] mentor, and they can… We can work it through. There might actually be an, an ounce of a really good idea [00:23:45] in there.” But, you might… You couldn’t just go to your boss. You go to my CFO, “I’ve had this [00:23:50] idea.” “Get out.” that’s… You can’t do that. Instead, you can role play it and went [00:23:55] through, and actually it’s really helped her over the years, and we, caught up recently. Is that something you’ve done, [00:24:00] or what do you think about mentoring?

Anika: I love mentoring. I [00:24:05] think it’s a great tool for career succession.

Anika: It’s a great tool [00:24:10] for benchmarking yourself, for exactly discussing out of the box [00:24:15] ideas. I am surprised that it’s not offered in bigger companies automatically. I [00:24:20] was spoiled in Shell because when I started there, I automatically had a mentor assigned to [00:24:25] me, and it was, great because he was not in my reporting line.

Anika: He was very senior, [00:24:30] so you discuss things that are not part of your usual work. Yeah. And what [00:24:35] I, apart from ideas, what I often discuss are also challenges. So how do you [00:24:40] deal with this person, right? So for me it was always also a [00:24:45] tool to discuss the usual leadership challenges that you have along the way.[00:24:50]

Anika: And leadership doesn’t necessarily mean staff responsibility. It can also [00:24:55] mean leading a project and, leading a diverse group of stakeholders without [00:25:00] influence.

Anika: And I offer it on purpose. I don’t [00:25:05] necessarily offer it to everyone as part of an official dialogue, right? You just do it, [00:25:10] and I hope it helps.

Anika: I hope I hope that it hel- I h- I help people [00:25:15] develop. I hope I can help them in whatever they want to achieve, and [00:25:20] that’s often always the first question that you ask, “What do you want to get out of it?” For me, I can say [00:25:25] that, to answer your question, what do I wanna get out of it? [00:25:30] I think it’s a great tool to understand also the younger generation, Gen Z, how they think, [00:25:35] right?

Anika: To stay connected because your team is not always only [00:25:40] your own age, your own gender, et cetera. And it’s [00:25:45] a it’s a great tool to see what’s going on in the organization, what’s on their [00:25:50] minds, and what are next steps to, bounce ideas. [00:25:55] yeah.

Mike: And it’s an interesting one. Jessica Siu from [00:26:00] Authentic Brands, who’s one of my speakers at AFP, she talked about how…

Mike: I said, how did you get your [00:26:05] mentor?” And she said, I had lots of coffees with people, and my mentor [00:26:10] doesn’t work in finance or treasury.” Yeah. “That works actually in, [00:26:15] actually, on the shop floor and more in operations and things like that. And they’re [00:26:20] amazing because they think totally differently to me.”

Mike: Yeah. She went, “The way they approach problems, [00:26:25] I go one direction, and they go, ‘Have you thought about this?’ And it’s, literally at 90 [00:26:30] degrees.” And she’s like, no. No.” And, and- Yeah … but also they’ve said it’s, been [00:26:35] a, a really nice equal relationship, that they’ve also got things from the way she [00:26:40] approaches a problem as well.

Mike: And that, that was one of the things that really inspired her as well. And it sounds like you’ve got the [00:26:45] same.

Anika: Yeah, very much. I really, enjoy talking to, to [00:26:50] peers or juniors from various departments because they think differently. If you talk to a data [00:26:55] scientist, if you talk to an IT engineer, if you talk, to a tax [00:27:00] professional, they think differently- Yeah

Anika: to a treasury professional. So you also learn how [00:27:05] they approach problems. And you, I feel often, especially with IT people [00:27:10] they often benefit from finance people on this, on the influencing skills [00:27:15] side, right? Yeah. how to get what you want. they’re often very left brain [00:27:20] of thinking.

Anika: Yeah. Very this is the problem, and solve it.

Mike: Solve it, and yeah,

Anika: and move- The softer part of [00:27:25] it, like how you get your way. Your, way from A to B is not always a straight line, right? Yeah. It [00:27:30] can be a bit S-shaped.

Mike: Squiggly line. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. [00:27:35] and you and I, we’ve just been at conferences together and things like that.

Mike: As you say… [00:27:40] we had it last year at the conference, and we just said, “Anyone that put AI, tagged it on the end [00:27:45] of your session, whether it was about AI or not.” the, the room was queuing up just to find out. That’s [00:27:50] obviously a big watch word. But are there any other areas, or what else do you think the treasury professionals need [00:27:55] to be focusing on over the next, six to 12 months?

Mike: Or where, do you think we’re [00:28:00] going?

Anika: Apart from the obvious automation AI-type [00:28:05] activities that you just mentioned, for me, big areas to watch out for [00:28:10] are compliance. Obviously, I work in a regulated industry, [00:28:15] so compliance is not only a big buzzword, but it’s also a very evolving one. And new laws are [00:28:20] coming into play that affect the way we do business.

Anika: [00:28:25] Instant, right? That’s a big buzzword, but related to AI, so whether you call it [00:28:30] instant reporting, instant cash steering. So that is, yes, [00:28:35] it’s linked to automation and AI, but it’s it has slightly different challenges to get, [00:28:40] to get where you want to go. I think the role of treasury has become more [00:28:45] international and is still becoming more international.

Anika: The world is more connected than it was 10 [00:28:50] years ago. So that I think is a trend that continues to exist, and it also means that [00:28:55] you have to manage your workforce in that regard, right?

Anika: If I put a job on [00:29:00] LinkedIn on Zalando, you have a very, international crowd applying for that.

Anika: So it’s [00:29:05] important to be up to date on like how the international treasury talent [00:29:10] development going on. And I think the role of treasury has [00:29:15] become more CFO advisory than it was 10 years ago, where it was more like process your payments [00:29:20] and do operational activities. And that I think is also is hopefully one [00:29:25] of the consequences of automation and AI, that you have the data, that you [00:29:30] have the information available in order to fulfill that role.

Anika: . And for me, [00:29:35] one of the big areas to look out for and to work on are operations, right? [00:29:40] Everybody has operations. Even the smallest company has some element of operations, but what does good [00:29:45] look like, and what does good look like tomorrow? And that answer is very [00:29:50] different to different industries and company sizes.[00:29:55]

Anika: But for me, I haven’t really made up my mind yet [00:30:00] on what does operations look like in five years, and that’s an area where I still learn a lot [00:30:05]

Mike: And you haven’t mentioned it, so I’ll mention it. Obviously I’m [00:30:10] speaking to a rising star of treasury. Recognition.

Mike: I think a [00:30:15] lot of treasurers, treasury professionals are poor at representing themselves [00:30:20] or putting themselves forward and things like that, but you have actually been recognized. You’ve got some awards and things like [00:30:25] that. Can you talk about, just talk around them and things, why they’re important, why they should [00:30:30] be.

Mike: so you were, given the Rising Star Award by EuroFinance, and, just talk us through [00:30:35] some of the recognition that you’ve received and, what a difference that makes and why other people should do it. [00:30:40]

Anika: So this year we, in Zalando, we [00:30:45] won the Adam Smith Award for Best Risk Management Solution for a compliant solution that was [00:30:50] quite a pathfinder in the industry, and I was awarded Rising Star at EuroFinance [00:30:55] and Rising Star at Adam Smith Award.

Anika: None of these nominations were done by myself, [00:31:00] right? so go to that-

Mike: Yeah, You say this. I saw the papers. It’s like, “I’m [00:31:05] great.” look at this. Yeah. I voted for myself 15 times. I’m in. I’m the [00:31:10] winner.

Anika: So I was nominated, and I was grateful for [00:31:15] Deutsche Bank for doing it ’cause frankly I would have never done it myself.

Anika: And, you’re right, [00:31:20] I don’t think I’m particularly good at at-

Mike: Self-promotion … [00:31:25]

Anika: self-promotion, and think it’s partly also a female thing that, women [00:31:30] tend to be a bit worse at it than men are in general. For me, [00:31:35] of course, right? These awards are great, and it’s a great honor to receive [00:31:40] them, but it doesn’t really change my day-to-day life, right?

Anika: So [00:31:45] that’s, the challenge

Mike: Do you not walk around the office just with a big badge, like with a big medal just [00:31:50] saying, “Look, sorry. Sorry, no, you have to speak to… I’m a rising star now. That’s it.” No.

Anika: No? Not [00:31:55] at

Mike: all. Okay.

Anika: No. They also don’t match my outfit.

Mike: Oh, okay.

Anika: [00:32:00] so they are a great recognition, but as soon as you have [00:32:05] them, life is back to normal, and,

Anika: It’s the challenge ahead of you that you’re trying to solve. [00:32:10] I hope it’s a recognition to the team that- Yeah … [00:32:15] it’s, never a about Anika award, right? It’s a team effort in the background. [00:32:20] And yeah, it’s great that I received that award, and, but especially for the risk [00:32:25] management solution there were a team of about 40 people working on that for almost a [00:32:30] year.

Anika: And honestly, it’s also these solutions are in place and working [00:32:35] because you receive the support from the boss and from the senior management to enable [00:32:40] that. And when all these little wheels work well together, then you [00:32:45] have a functioning machine, and then you are successful. Yeah. And the awards are a great [00:32:50] honor.

Anika: But yeah, onto the next tasks I would say.

Mike: I remember when I spoke to [00:32:55] Wolfgang at Porsche, and he… They’d won four or five awards, and I was like, “Oh…” did, the [00:33:00] jokey conversation with him. And he said… we joke around, but he said, “Actually, [00:33:05] treasury by its very nature sometimes

Mike: this was actually to bring people out, to actually [00:33:10] recognize the effort that people make, and it sounds like you were feeling the same?[00:33:15]

Anika: The way treasury is set up in Zalando payments, we are [00:33:20] on the forefront, and it’s part of my role as a leader to make sure I’m in an advisory [00:33:25] role to the management board. And hence, I can see where he’s coming from.

Anika: [00:33:30] I personally don’t feel like that.

Mike: We were saying that, I was, joking with him and saying, [00:33:35] you need recognition. this is why you’re doing it for the big gold star.” He said, “Actually, the opposite.” [00:33:40] It was actually to recognize the team, to recognize the efforts because otherwise, sometimes you [00:33:45] get so just working on, we’ve done that project.

Mike: We delivered that. Boom. Yeah. It’s actually to take a breath and [00:33:50] go, “Wow, that was pretty amazing.” Yeah. And that, yeah, that, I think that was a positive thing. [00:33:55]

Anika: I think once you do complex things like- the risk management solution was while [00:34:00] you are in the depth of the project, you don’t realize that you are actually [00:34:05] creating a pathfinder for the industry.

Anika: You don’t realize that you’re actually doing a great thing because you are going [00:34:10] from challenge to challenge.

Anika: And you go two steps ahead and one step back, and then three [00:34:15] steps ahead, and then slowly- slowly, the project develops. And when you’ve done it, you go [00:34:20] like, “Oh, great.

Anika: Finally, it’s done . It’s one more work.” Yeah. And then on to the next [00:34:25] things. But you… it’s a good time to reflect and say, “Okay, we’ve actually achieved something [00:34:30] that is, internationally recognized.” And that was a great moment for the [00:34:35] company and a great moment for the team, and I’m most proud of my team who did it.

Mike: That’s fantastic. [00:34:40] As we approach the end, we’ll put your, LinkedIn details in the show notes, you’ll be flooded with [00:34:45] connection requests. The people do say this to me. no, they do, and it- it’s quite cool ’cause you then you know [00:34:50] people that listen to the podcast, and we get num- yeah, hundreds of listeners now [00:34:55] every, every, episode.

Mike: But we’ll put that in there. But takeaway advice [00:35:00] what advice would you give to maybe someone earlier in their career, as you were, we [00:35:05] talked about earlier, mid-level or more senior? what are the takeaways that if someone’s [00:35:10] having their, cup of tea or coffee at the end of the week and they’re listening to this what takeaways would you give [00:35:15] them?

Anika: I would say Choose [00:35:20] the difficult path The easy path will always get you the easy [00:35:25] results. Choose the difficult projects, choose the stuff that is outside your comfort zone. [00:35:30] be bold. tell your boss what you want, ’cause [00:35:35] otherwise he or she won’t know where he or she can support you, whether that means, [00:35:40] we talked about mentors earlier, whether that means particular roles, particular projects.

Anika: [00:35:45] Be transparent and be humble, right? So I have the attitude that I [00:35:50] can learn from everyone in the room, whether it’s the cleaning staff or whether [00:35:55] it’s the CEO. There’s some things that person knows that I don’t know and maybe I should know. [00:36:00] And be humble, be bold, learn, or as [00:36:05] Cinderella said, “Have courage and be kind.”

Anika: Be nice to your team, be nice, be a good [00:36:10] person. But be bold and learn and never stop learning [00:36:15] because as we see with the challenges ahead of us, whether it’s macroeconomic [00:36:20] challenges, whether it’s IT, that’s changing, AI coming up. The world is [00:36:25] changing and if you stop and if you think you’re in a, good place and you don’t adjust your [00:36:30] mindset and keep moving, you might not learn, you might not grow [00:36:35] and it might be to your detriment.

Mike: Amazing to talk to you today. A prize winner. I’ll be [00:36:40] looking to seeing you with the big medal very soon. Anika, great chat. Thank you very much. [00:36:45] thank you for doing it today.

Anika: Thanks a lot.