Next Generation Treasury Talent & Succession Planning Strategies

Mike, CEO, The Treasury Recruitment Company: Welcome to this week’s Treasury Career Corner podcast, where usually I talk to Treasurers about how they’ve built the careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the Treasury profession going to next.

This is a different show. It’s come from a live session I did where I moderated a session at the 34^th Eurofinance International Treasury Conference in Budapest. I was joined by the amazing Winny LI, Group Treasurer at PPD, a Thermo Fisher company, and Ellen Cornelissen, Treasury Director, Europe and Asia at Filtration Group.

I know the ladies very well. Winny has been both a podcast guest and a Treasury Career Corner Live guest on my live tour.

And we’ve got sessions coming up actually in London and Amsterdam. So we’ll put a link to those in the show notes, so come join us for those. And also, Ellen Cornelieson, we placed Ellen at Filtration Group, both gave me some big shoutouts and saying you guys should all be listening to the podcast. Thanks very much, ladies.

But together, we spoke about next generation treasury talent and succession planning strategies. I know, big title, but actually what we were talking about, how in today’s competitive, professional environment, securing the future of your treasury team means more than just technical expertise. And that and it’ll help you build a strong partner of treasury talent within your own teams and if you’re one of that team you know and you’re thinking right how can I coach my boss upwards how can they help me well this will give you some more advice as well so it’s really there to help you whatever stage of your career as well.

So whether you’re planning for leadership transition or building the bench strength or you are part of that bench and you want to make the next step this episode is going to help you with some essential tools to ensure continuity and growth in your treasury function.

If you’re listening and just enjoying the episodes, please give us a shout out or give us a thumbs up rating on either Spotify or Apple iTunes, wherever you do it, or a lot of people who are actually doing it on YouTube. So wherever you are, please give us a rating there. I really appreciate it.

But as I say, each and every week, let’s get on with the show.

Mike: Welcome this afternoon to our session about treasury talent here in Budapest. Firstly I’m going to ask for your energy and enthusiasm. I know it’s after lunch. I know you’re still waking up, and I’m not going to have a go at Julia, but we will wake her up in a minute as well, because I’m going to ask, although we’re going to have, actually, Wendy, can you go to the slide

Mike: please?. Is she there? Yes. There you go. If you want to ask questions, and I would suggest you do, because when was the last time you got to ask two amazing treasurers and a treasury recruiter about your talent? Questions? You haven’t, you don’t get a chance to do this. So what you can do is scan the QR code.

Mike: This is the last time you’re allowed your phones. Except for if you’re putting in a question. If you’re doing a deal, get out and you’re swapped. You should be doing that on your laptop. But the reason is, because give yourselves this time, you’re going to get to listen to these great treasurers talking about talent, I’ll chip in a little bit as well.

Mike: But if we go back to who we are, there you go. Come on Wendy. Go back to who we are. So these people know because they don’t know otherwise. Wendy, is she there? She’s there. Great. So who am I? I’m Mike Richards. I run The Treasury Recruitment Company. Have been doing for, been a treasury recruiter, actually nearly 30 years.

Mike: I love talking to you treasury professionals. I love it even more when you move to other jobs because I can send out a bill. But how did I get into this? As well as doing treasury recruitment, I also host a podcast, Treasury Career Corner. We’ve done 400 episodes. Winny has been one of my guests.

Mike: Ellen will be a future guest. She doesn’t know that, but I’m getting that on tape. 400 guests last week, marked seven years, and Tony Masone, global treasurer of Amazon. So really worth listening to if you want to become successful in treasury. That’s enough from me. I’m going to let each of my guests explain who they are, give you a quick introduction, and we will have times for Q&A.

Mike: We might do some on the Slido. We might actually do more with you guys here in the audience. Over to you, Winny.

Winny, Group Treasurer at PPD, part of Thermo Fisher Scientific: Sure. Thank you. Thanks Mike. Indeed I will say Mike’s podcast is amazing. Do listen to it and then you learn a lot from the podcast and from lots of talents we see worldwide, really.

Winny: So my name is Winny Li, so I work for company for PPD is a CRO clinical research organization and we are part of a Thermo Fisher Scientific inc. Listed  company and the company’s very big. It’s about 130,000 employees worldwide and about 42 billion annual revenue, US dollars. A hundred billion assets.

Winny: The company is actually very global as a Group Treasurer, I’ve been actually working for the company for almost 20 years. Time really flies really when you’re enjoying yourself. So helping the company do IPO and sell to the PE company. Sold it twice and then and enlisted that again, and then actually sell ourselves to Thermo Fisher.

Winny: So I’ve been with the rollercoaster and all the rides through the company. Learned a lot and then truly, really, truly enjoy it as well.

Ellen, Treasury Director, Europe & Asia – Filtration Group: Yeah. Ellen Cornelissen. I work for a Filtration Group in Switzerland, but I actually belong to the corporate office in Chicago. I’m responsible for the Treasury in Europe and Asia, and by the way, as a small advertisement, got my brilliant job through Mike, so I can recommend him all the time.

Ellen: Our company is called Filtration Group. Nobody knows us, which is totally fine, but anyone probably has some stuff we produce in your watches, in your cars, we do air filters, water filters, purifiers, Clean rooms, anything with filters and membranes is what we produce. We’re a global company, not that big as Winny’s, but we have about 7,000 people, $2.4 billion turnover.

Ellen: And I managed about 150 companies in my regions, so quite a bit. And also the topic for today is interesting because I’m getting towards the end of my career we are actively looking in career planning and succession planning. So hopefully I can share my thoughts on this with you and helped you with it.

Mike: Okay. Winny, if you would, can you explain the structure of your team, maybe globally, treasury wise? And then we’ll do the same with yourself and then because yours covers more you focus again, although you work remotely, you’ve got a global team. But in particular for our title here, you hear the phrase next generation treasury talent.

Mike: What that actually means are the context of your teams. So over to you.

Winny: Yeah, sure. So giving the global nature of our business, so our treasury team are global as well, and then they actually located in the US even the US, the various different centers. Yeah, Pittsburgh and San Diego Boston and North Carolina.

Winny: And then we also have in Bulgaria and then in the UK. So currently we don’t have anyone in AsiaPac, but we actually managing equally matrix system to us. Although it’s actually they actually in different region, but actually everyone’s role is global. And so we actually really trying to promote making sure everyone have a global reach, understanding global issues wherever you are sitting.

Winny: Regarding the question you said next generation, and then I think first thing pop into my head is they’re young, they’re enthusiastic, they’re actually very tech driven, tech  savvy, and then also they would like to contribute to a purpose, which is really, intriguing. the framework   I try to build is actually wanting to make sure they have a curiosity to learn and then to continue to be adapt to this changing world.

Mike: come to yourself and you and I, when we spoke on the podcast, you talked about going into lockdown and COVID and things like that. And obviously. You were at the center of things, but you and I on the podcast was public, so it’s all right.

Mike: You had your team before. You then recruited some people, but then you didn’t have quite the same people on the bus afterwards. What happened? I know you and I described it.

Winny: Yeah. It’s quite interesting because during the COVID, we definitely hired people who actually joined during the COVID, the only interaction you have is on the

Winny: Teams and Zoom. So literally you, you haven’t actually built that gelness in the team. So I think and then very shortly you find that people actually recruited, and you are working with before COVID always stays with you. Yeah. But during the COVID and they easily to, feel like, oh I quit and change because they haven’t actually really, truly become part of a team.

Winny: Hasn’t gelled as much as everyone else, but we are always adaptive, so we are actually changing our ways regardless where you are, how you are actually working regarding whether we’re in the office or not. We try to build a team atmosphere and culture. .

Ellen: Yeah.

Mike: And how do you do that over to you?

Ellen: The, approach has changed over the years. In the past, it used to be that you, hire people with a finance background with an ACT certificate or an AFP certificate. And I still like that both as the basics of doing so. What I’m looking for, and use the word curiosity is I’ve hired a lot of people who are curious in wanting to learn and my thought is that I’m looking more at if do the people fit into the team?

Ellen: I’ve managed a lot of teams in a lot of cultures and a lot of countries. So being that round person that can work both in with Asian people, but European people is important. And my approach is that if you’re willing enough, people can be taught a lot. If people are curious, they’re willing to learn.

Ellen: And one of, a couple of the best hires I have had in my career were people who were interested, so at the current state, just I’m let’s call it phasing out of my job, and we’re looking as well to see if we can get young people in, not necessarily with the typical treasury background, but rather with some background in let’s go using Power BI at a moment.

Ellen: We’re interested in developing things as well, so having a curious mind is extremely important I think.

Mike: So when we had our briefing call for this session. We had a, we changed the title by the way guys. Because we felt it was more, because there was some more discussion about planning when you are retiring as a treasurer and you are talking about stepping out of the profession at a later stage.

Mike: But we said, look, that’s not appropriate. We are talking about what if you’re moving a treasury analyst to a manager. And the contribution I had at the time was I was trying to explain to people. What’s in it for me? And try to say to me as a recruiter, what has changed throughout the time is you would go to someone with a treasury analyst with the next move to a treasury manager, and then you go, here’s a great opportunity, here’s great.

Mike: And then in the past it would be great. What’s the salary? Great. Okay. Now it’s a different set of questions. What’s the hybrid working policy? Do I get lunch? What’s the pension? And this goes back to an example, and I gave this to the ladies as well, that my daughter now 25, but when she was 16, worked in a restaurant.

Mike: She said, oh dad, what else do I get? I said you get a job and they pay, you do get a pension. I went, you’re 16, love you. Like you don’t need, what other benefits do I get? And then we were talking about the fact that was a different, that was a shift for us. And I was going to put it back to yourselves.

Mike: I’ll start with Winny in here. That succession planning, how do you do that with the different. Members of the team, how do you motivate those guys?

Winny: Yeah. And I actually believe succession planning is not just for people about retire. It’s really needed to build into the organization structure from day one, and then literally design your team with succession planning. Making sure

Winny: every role, every task there is actually someone else that can do it. because the global nature of our business, everyone at different locations, but pair people up regardless of where they’re sitting. And then you will find. And also one thing to point out is in my team we have someone as young as 23 and

Winny: And then it’s quite interesting, especially the 64-year-old was saying, whoa you’re 23. I joined the company long before you were born. So actually you see the, generations and so on and the team them up are doing different project, mini project together. You really, truly find they learn from each other.

Winny: And then really later on, I think we’re going to talk about AI as well, which is actually really interesting to see what sparks off, don’t underestimate the youngsters, but equally don’t underestimate someone who’s older. They equally want to learn. And I think it sparked that culture of learning, building into your structure, learning from each other.

Winny: And also we have this rotation planning as well, apart from succession planning, it’s a rotation. Everyone do different roles and then switch and swap by request, by discussion, by consultations through annual performance reviews and so on and so forth. So then actually build this kind of a safe environment and people can actually reach out to

Winny: ask a question, think about my career, how they want to do things, and then also understand your team, what they need as well, which is very important.

Ellen: It’s similar with us that we try to, when we hire people, we do some sort of summer internships where we get people from universities who work for us.

Ellen: We try to get some projects in. I had a team last year when we did some bank migrations. We hire people and we try to pick people also from the universities who are keen. And also very important is that there’s a role changing. So we’d like to have people work in different teams and different departments before they, in the end decide themselves where they want to end up for a while.

Ellen: And that gives a great background. And yeah, it’s a great learning process because in by doing that, they get to know all the stakeholders in all the teams are just not only focused on finance or treasury, but also get to learn to know the operation people. And I think that’s a well-rounded structure you can set up for your people.

Ellen: And also to see people grow and give them a chance to grow. And I think that’s one of the most important things is that you set up people in your teams to grow into roles, and that might not be the one you want them to have, but rather that they find out what is the role they want to go for and that changes.

Ellen: I I’m not an original treasurer, I’m a linguist. I like giving people the chances to find out whether. True happiness lies in work and not you’re now in FP&A, so you’re sticking to FP&A but have to sniff around and see what you can do. And I think that’s a great opportunity in companies you can offer to your people to find out who they are and what they want to do.

Mike: And how do you then prioritize on the job training versus more formal education? Because a lot of these guys will do treasury qualifications, wherever they might be across Europe and the UK, but versus actually on the job. How do you prioritize That?

Ellen: I still like the ACT or AFP trainings as a basic training.

Ellen: Yeah, it’s done me a lot of good, I’ve done it myself. I like people to have that sort of base. Knowledge and they can work from there. And for me, you don’t need to have an MBA. I’ve seen the opposite with people with MBAs who thought they know it all. I’ve seen people coming in who didn’t have any finance background, who did the corporate treasury training.

Ellen: They grew, they blossomed. So it depends on the person as well. But I, personally do that AFP / ACT training as a good grounding to start for your career in treasury.

Mike: But all the talk in the hall is about technology and AI. If we said if I had a pound for that, I wouldn’t be here. I’d be very rich sitting on a beach somewhere.

Mike: Yeah, because it’s the buzzword. How do you then technical training and stuff, how do you do that? And then we’ll come back to yourself, Winny because I know you,

Ellen: I think in the end, it is, it’s again, getting back to curiosity and AI is here to stay. I use ChatGPT quite a bit, especially for writing policies, which I hate.

Ellen: So I dump it into ChatGPT and get some stuff out. They, you all know that you do need to check what they’re writing because it can be totally off. But it’s, I used that for policies. I have one colleague who’s brilliant in Power BI. So we use each other to learn and to teach each other. I’m not that good in Power BI yet.

Ellen: My colleague is, it’s again a team training. You support each other, you learn from each other. And for me that is a great part because then again, people grow. You can see where people want to go to, and you learn what’s new in the market.

Mike: Yeah, I presented at the New York Cash Exchange two weeks ago.

Mike: Yeah. Crazy. And we were talking about ChatGPT with the audience, and actually someone said, I want to use it. And they said, but it’s not giving me the results. They said, yeah, because you are putting in and not asking the right things. I said, because all that ChatGPT is, it’s distinctly average, I said, its completely average.

Mike: And they, they weren’t getting it. I said, look, if you say you want a sandwich, make me this kind of sandwich, great, and you’ll get the average of everything. I said make me one. That’s made by Gordon Ramsey, the best of the best. It is a totally different ingredients. Totally. And they went, oh yeah. And it was just like.

Mike: Their eyes. Now I know with training with AI what was it you said here? Learning never stops. Look at this. Go, to you.

Winny: Yeah. It’s so true. Actually. Learning never stops Really. maybe just step back a little bit. The global company, I’m working for the top down, everyone passionate about AI, which is amazing because you have that top leadership team who are passionate about AI and wanting to.

Winny: To seek the best solution for our customers. Then actually that’s investment there and we got digitization department, which is actually amazing team to work with. And then collaborating, obviously with them. We have our closed clouds. AI solution just for the company is 120, 130,000 employee.

Winny: It’s a lot of people actually using it. We do actually our competitions and then literally to look at which department use the most. And then they actually, in fact they say that for work you’re not allowed to use normal ChatGPT, you have to use companies solution. So at the moment it’s a gen ai and we just got, the ChatGPT Enterprise installed, which we’re starting to use.

Mike: And just to ask you, so for this audience here, what if they don’t have access to a closed system? I know Dan Ferguson was in insurance, or still insurance actually, but they had a closed system and he was able to chuck some questions at it, get answers in seconds. Yeah, that was great for him. But one of his colleagues of one of his.

Mike: Sorry, ex-colleagues who was another insurers didn’t have that. How would these guys approach that, would you say?

Winny: Yeah, I think there’s a two, two side public AI and versus a private would I say, and then I think be careful what you put in. So that’s another thing from clinical research organization

Winny: the PPD is serving in lots of data is actually private. And then there’s a patient data ID you cannot refer to. They cannot put any, like the protocol number in there, in case implicating to the public domain and leaking the private privacy. So be careful what you put in. And at the end of the day, the AI at the moment is really developing and developing really fast.

Winny: The more you put in, is then helpful for generating good answers coming back. However, validation humans still actually you are the in the driving seats and the output, the responsibility and the ownership is you. You are the one driving this. And then regarding our team, how we encourage the learning is that we actually.

Winny: At our, we have a social, it goes back to what you were talking about during the COVID, we started that we have not stopped it. I think it was still good to, to keep is. So we have this social team meeting once to two weeks. So regardless of where you are, we have this social team meeting.

Winny: Nothing you can talk about relating to work. You talk about anything else. So doing this and anything else we talk about the. AI tools used for outside work and then what do you do? And then people talking about that holiday planning, they did, they how they schedule their children’s schedules and then how to actually put in their children’s timetable.

Winny: They have three children put all the timetable. There’s the AI tool and how to combine into one, combine it, and then also saying, what do you need to take to school every day because this, activity happen. So that’s small little things. You build that environment. And also the other thing I think is lead by example.

Winny: And then I tell my team where I go to do further learning, I did the Oxford AI course. I really find that very interesting. And then I come back and I share the information learned to the team and say, oh, that’s how everything come about. What, why is AI, where is it going in the next

Winny: 10 years and 50 years, and then what potential would be. And then, if you nurture that safe environment everyone want to learn Yeah. Then actually in spite to each other and the positive cycle will go round.

Ellen: Yeah. The, one input from my side on AI is that AI is nice and it’s lovely and it’s going to be the next step

Ellen: in the world. On the other hand, working in treasury, you need different things as well. As in you need to work with your banks. AI is not going to help you. You need to work with your teams. AI is not going to help you. So I love AI. I use AI, but I won’t lose track of the fact that there needs to be communication.

Ellen: That you need to work with people, that you need to be able to get contracts in place if you negotiate with banks. So it’s one line. It will be a gradual change. And I saw that on the board, so don’t, for me, it’s also in going forward is don’t forget the soft skills as in needing to work together, work as a team, but use whatever you can

Ellen: to make your job easier. I use AI to do things I hate, and I tell my teams anything you can program it because it’s something you don’t want to do. So take away all the nuisance work, take away all the ground work, and rather, that gives you a chance than to concentrate on projects and strategy, et cetera.

Ellen: So for me, AI is a tool to develop teams, but also to, to take away grunt work. If you would still do reconciliation by hand. I don’t know. Nobody does that anymore, I hope. But it’s use that to your advantage to free up your time and learn more and yeah, develop more

Mike: and talking about learning and things.

Mike: You guys are here for two, three days. You’re going to learn some things. And you’re going to go back to your office and you’re going to throw your bag in the corner and you’re going to get your badge and you throw that in the bin and say, great, look, let’s go up to Barcelona next year. Hey, what are you going to take away with yourselves?

Mike: Just when you’re on the plane on the way back, or just grab your phone. Not now. I’m watching you Herve, put on your phone some notes over the next couple of days, maybe tonight before the drinks, just like these ladies have told you. One learning point for today, one for tomorrow, and then share it with your team when you get back.

Mike: Number one, it’ll be easier to come back to EuroFinance. So Wendy, thank you for the shout out trying to help her. But you will be able to oh, we came back, I learned this. Let’s implement it as a team. And that’s one of the key things. So if you follow me, I do a weekly newsletter, which I’ve been made to do.

Mike: I hate doing it, but the fact is I share some of the learnings I get from you guys that I enjoy. Because one of the key things is when we get back from the conference is try and give some of that learning. You are soaking this all up. I know there’s also soaking up lots of the beers later, but that’s a different story.

Mike: Going back to you ladies, you’ve talked about experimenting with new tools. How does that affect engagement with your team? If again, these guys are coming here to learn about how you engage with your other. Treasury talent. How do you do it?

Winny: I think let people share their learning.

Winny: That’s quite important. And then from nothing is too small because if you save your time and make your work more efficient, more effective, share it saving 20 minutes, 30 minutes, it’s a saving time. And you could actually get on with more value added activities. So definitely and also team, also look at a new tool, new system, get them to provide honest feedback.

Winny: Not just positive, but also negative. What is actually what you have to avoid and what you need to validate to make sure this new tool is actually really useful for you and how you use it is quite important. Like you were talking about the prompts, how you put in the prompts, and then how to structure your question when you actually, try to fully utilize that tool in the maximum capability and make sure that some team members who might be scared of learning any new things and give them more space and more time to adapt. Because some people might be very quick, oh, I get it, two seconds. So they say, oh, just do this.

Winny: But then some people may need that 10 minutes to even longer time to think through and to understand how that output is. It’s quite interesting to see people’s reaction when they’re actually introducing something new. Just literally some people’s eyes light up. Wow, that’s new. Amazing. I want to just dive in to do it.

Winny: But some are like I need to try it before I test it, before I trust it. So yeah,

Mike: rotating your team and then we’ll come to yourself again. I’ve told both of these ladies, they need to not retain their teams. Need to call me but when there’s a natural time sometimes for people to move on, but how do you retain or keep their interest as a team as well?

Winny: Yeah. To my delight, and maybe not your delight, it’s actually most of my team is a very  loyal and been in the organization for a very, very long time. I think keeping them interested. Knowing that knowing everyone may ask at their different life journey a different part. As I mentioned some is 23 young, single want, eager to learn, wants to learn more give them that to

Winny: the environment, where they can learn more and then actually try out different things with them. Some people actually have young children, they juggle various different things. Just be very sensitive. You remember they need to pick up their child at 5:00 PM every day. Then give that space.

Winny: Don’t book a meeting in at that time. Don’t get them into that dilemma and literally I said to them book your slot five to six, pick up your child, that’s your time. Don’t worry if it’s something urgent, I talk to you at 6:00 PM doesn’t matter. So then actually really think about everyone’s needs.

Winny: They are all different individuals, so that then actually keeping them entertained and then to give them the, yeah, engaged to make sure that actually they feel like that everyone is constantly learning and developing together.

Mike: And Ellen, you’ve talked about, retention very much as a personal thing as well.

Mike: Any habits that you found that help as well, just similar to This?

Ellen: I think it’s very important to, to always realize that it’s a job we’re doing, but it’s still, it’s a person doing the job. And like when he said it’s important to, to realize what’s in the background of a per of a person. I have one colleague whose small kiddies he needs to bring to school.

Ellen: So he’s fine. He’s in the US so I don’t mind anyway, but he won’t be in before nine. Give people a chance to have their normal life. Don’t stick to, you need to be in the office from nine to five. Otherwise, give them free time if they want. For example, have lunchtime because they need a lunch break for whatever they do.

Ellen: Go for a yoga course, give them a chance. I think it’s getting more and more important that. And let’s say my parents’ generation, you worked from nine to five, who cared about your background. Nobody cared about your background. This world is moving. So for me, it’s extremely important to see the person who is doing it out.

Ellen: If I know that the person is happy in a home situation because it works out good for him or her. If the person has a chance to do some training or even go for a football course, yoga course, whatever. And then has needs to shift the hours away from nine to five. Giving a person that chance makes a person, at least in my, experience, happier.

Ellen: And that is easier for the retention. There’s some projects you need to do in a timeframe, but I give my people a chance to do it within the timeframe in their time. So it’s, the world is changing and we need to change with them. You can’t force this nine to five on people anymore. So yeah, see the whole person.

Mike: And you are being very optimistic about it, but putting a pessimistic angle, what about when it’s starting to slip?

Mike: Are there any warning signs from when you start to see the culture going out, what do you

Ellen: look for? That happens obviously, not everyone is as dedicated to do that, but you can see from the work, quite a bit of the projects do have timestamps. So if you see somebody slipping, you can work with a person.

Ellen: What’s in the background? Why are you doing this? Are you bored? Are you not interested? Don’t you have time? Work with that. And yes, in the past also people had to go because they definitely just didn’t want to bring in their expertise and the time. I’m sorry, in the end where it’s a paying Job. if you’re paid for it, you better work for it as well.

Ellen: But it’s, difficult. In my career I had one case luckily, and, yeah, sometimes you need to say bye. But, my experience is that most people do value having more opportunities in their own time, not being stuck to office hours. And, with one colleague, he loves to work in the evening.

Ellen: Because then the kids are in bed and he is, he’s got more time to do it and he’s got leisure and peace and kids are asleep. No crying daddy. Yeah, have a look at that. Time’s changing.

Mike: Yourself. What’s a warning sign?

Winny: We have lots of KPIs, first of all, which is actually, we always track. So you have a monitoring system.

Winny: Also you have the one-to-one for your, with your direct report. So anything vaguely slipping and I think that would already pick up by either KPI or one-to-one discussions and we help them. And sometimes actually, as you say, some of the circumstances, you really see someone. It’s struggling for some reason, and then you discover potentially there’s a deeper reason for it.

Winny: And then, in the past some time ago now you have to literally, either one of the cases we discover there’s really personal circumstances, then we have to restructure the contract. Even today, maybe we work four days a week, maybe helping you out to give you more time to look after the elderly, and then you need to look after and so on.

Winny: We totally appreciate the time we got with that person and then actually utilize it fully during that time. But ensure the business still running smoothly and operating successfully. So I think that’s for us all the common goal we try to achieve really.

Mike: Our podcast is sponsored by TradeWeb. TradeWeb are an independent platform, trusted by thousands of Treasury professionals worldwide to manage their short -term investments. One global treasurer recently told me was one of the smartest technology decisions they’ve ever made. No license fees, rapid setup and tangible returns. If you’re looking for a smarter, simpler way to manage your liquidity, then head over to our partners page, treasuryrecruitment.com/partners, find out much, much more. Now let’s get back to the episode.

Mike: And you touched on it earlier, but wanted to revisit about curiosity.

Mike: Yeah. How do you build that into the daily work, if you like, or not just a nice to have. Because you’ve got someone, the other day I was talking to, they said, oh yeah, we do it all the time. And I went, really? And we drilled down a little bit, didn’t actually make the podcast because I think they realized afterwards they weren’t really there was so much they were doing, they were so busy.

Mike: They said, oh yeah, we build it in. And then realized there’s no time to build it in. But how do you make it work?

Winny: Yeah. I think you can build in, yeah. Encouraging question. Ask more open questions. So sometimes, what do you think, Mike? What do you think? The work you’ve done, how you find it, you know anything you feel like you are actually very proud of, or anything you actually felt like you could improve on?

Winny: Is there any alternative options you might have? You ask those open questions and then you would tease out different people have slightly different thought  process. You spark, the interest from everyone in the team meeting. And also you can incorporate into your team meeting.

Winny: I get all my team member leading by themselves. So really when we started, we’re always a traditional either treasury manager leads it and everyone contributes and so on. Then actually we say, I want to give everyone opportunity, especially some people who not scared of a public speaking.

Winny: And then some, some is generalization. Some people, they’re actually very tech savvy, but they are  afraid of speaking up. And they’re very quiet. And then, so what I did is actually for my team, say we take turns to lead the session for the team meeting. So throughout the year, many different team members, regardless of what

Winny: rank you are, how junior you are, you have already led a team meeting. And then if you have that experience and a feeling of curiosity to learn more, and you find that actually they improve so much throughout period of time and then they leading the project, also  collaborating with other departments.

Mike: I’m going to pass that to you, Ellen, but before I do, we’re coming up with a 10 minute mark. So Wendy, could you put up the slide over here? So you are allowed to use your phones whilst you listen to Ellen give this and you can give us some lovely questions, make them good ones. But for you, how do you tease out curiosity in your teams?

Mike: Or how do you build it in?

Ellen: First of all, I personally like going to conferences. I learn a lot. I just pick up new things. So what we do is on a regular basis, sit together, what’s new on the market. What do you think we can do? Get the IDs in, and then we do some sort of planning to see what we actually can do.

Ellen: Sometimes can’t do because we can’t do it in the company. We don’t have the funds for it, but just get everyone’s opinion in and what could we change? What could we improve? How do we do that? And just keep people curious and asking questions. Be open to discuss any change. And, I said sometimes you can’t do it, but just listen at it and then make priorities and set up like, this is what we’re going to do.

Ellen: Do you want to lead this one? Yeah, sure. And then somebody else wants to do that. Learn from each other again and just keep a curious and open mind.

Mike: Nice. We’ll come back to yourself about, I often see companies hiring for experience. This is the job description and stuff, and it actually comes to one of the questions in here in a minute.

Mike: But then sometimes you lose people for fit because you’ve got a really technically strong person, but they’re not a good fit. What advice for any, if anyone in here, is looking to hire people or coach people to try to balance technical skill versus potential? How do you balance the two? And then we’ll get to that.

Winny: I think it really depends on person. And then you’ll see, during the interview process, you actually also look at the technical skill, the qualification, but equally importantly is the culture fit, whether they fit into the team. And then certainly in our team, we felt like we are giant family.

Winny: And then literally you felt like you are coming into this family member, everyone with the gel together, how to spark each other, how to learn from each other, and I think it’s really quite critical to have that. And then I also agree with you, Ellen, in terms say some technical skills that also give you a baseline to do more learning.

Winny: But saying all of that equally, in the past I hired people who was not a graduate and then she did do ACT training, but she never been to university. Everything’s a life experience. And then equally she was doing a great job. And then able to also inspire other people to learn continuing learning and being very adaptive and flexible and thinking about things is actually fairly open mind.

Winny: So it’s actually really depends on the individual. Don’t restrict you in any way to cut off the potentials. Yeah.

Ellen: I couldn’t agree more than with that. So for me, the fit within the team is very important. I said I manage Europe in Asia, so many different countries, different cultures.

Ellen: So having an open mind for that is so important. And I think that almost anything you can learn if you want to, if you’re interested. So yeah, get the base of the basics in, but have an open mind and doing that. So for me, in the end, the fit in the team will be extremely important. And I look at that if somebody has a, let’s say a restrictive mindset you can’t do much with it, but somebody who is open, who is want look, wants to look into things, yeah.

Ellen: That, I don’t know how to say it more, but yeah, be open minded. Have a curious mindset. And, have the willingness to learn. Yeah. To improve, yeah. To learn yourself and to help others.

Mike: So we’re going to go to the questions, because also we’ve got some great takeaways from you ladies as well towards the end.

Mike: We’ll actually take the second one down here, how AI is impacting your hiring decisions. Wait for those. Yeah, I’ll wait for those. Yeah. We’ll go how AI is impacting your hiring. And then I get asked about. Where it says Mike at the same time. So how is AI impacting your hiring decisions ladies?.

Winny: It’s quite interesting. Now you get CV’s that you can just identify those AI tool output. There is  no personality.  It is very concise, well written, structured, matches the requirements. But is that human behind it? So that make you curious. Wanted to see what, and who they are as a person.

Mike: So I just want to jump in there and not want to interrupt.

Mike: But yeah, actually that answers the question. How much?., A lot of the time, if someone is applying for a job, I use a little known tool called AI to reassess the person say, is this written by AI? And most of the time it comes out, yeah, 99%. And I’m like, yeah. So they’ve taken the job description, they’ve given them the cv, said make it match this and send it to me.

Mike: And I put it back into AI and go, is this a load of baloney? Yes, it is.

Ellen: So it’s

Mike: So we start again. And just on that being said, I do think that people should use AI to help them. So if you’ve got a job description and you want to put yourself forward, find out the top three pain points, ask AI to help you it’s about implementing system, or they’re going to have to hire some people.

Mike: Ask it what they see or it sees to help you refine and then put it in your resume and just say, where do I match it? What are the top two or three things? Don’t do all of your resume/CV, do just the top two or three because then when it lands on someone’s desk, so it lands on Winny’s desk, it lands on Ellen’s desk, they will go, oh yeah, actually this person has got relevant experience.

Mike: Also, if your CV and you can see it doesn’t really match, stop applying for the job. You’re wasting their time and your time. And you might be desperate for a job but there are other jobs out there. But Sorry I interrupted. We carry on. No,

Winny: perfect. Yeah, exactly. Links very well in terms of hiring decisions, really.

Winny: The person, curiosity to learn, as we said, it’s about and the team fits very important. The AI aspect is more about adaptable. Willing to learn. So one thing I definitely I think I want to pass on to everybody is actually the professor from Oxford, who is actually an AI field, was very a top professor.

Winny: He said, that in the future, it’s not AI replacing human, it’s the human who does not use AI will be replaced by the human who use AI. So with that in mind, you do want to hire people who has a curiosity, technical. Warm to technical doesn’t necessarily be a technical expert, but at least willing to learn.

Winny: Then that will help you for cater for that very uncertain future we’re all heading in. And also adaptive to any situations we potentially facing.

Mike: I don’t want Ellen to ask this, but also we’ve probably got time for only one of these questions, but we will be hanging around outside. So if one of you is part of this question, we’re happy to answer the questions outside.

Mike: Because we’ll do the wrap ups as well, but, and then for yourself?

Ellen: As in using AI?

Mike: Yeah. To hire decisions?

Ellen: No, I do reversed AI in in checking. Yeah. Because to be honest, you can recognize things, if you put it into AI it’s not.

Mike: That just went.

Ellen: Yeah. So on the other hand, it’s maybe horrible, but, that gives me another impression.

Ellen: If you use AI without proper checking it, sorry, that’s not a curious mind I’m looking for. So yeah, use it to your benefit, but be open minded and also with people willing to learn. And just saying that from my age, don’t look at young people only. I know a lot of people who are 40, 50, and 60.

Ellen: You are extremely curious, extremely willing to learn, extremely willing to put their time in to get the job Done. yes, a lot of young people in the market, but I don’t want to exclude anyone just on age based, but rather getting who is that person and does that person fit in?

Mike: And that comes down to you say here, how to retain your people, not compromise the quality in light of high turnover.

Mike: Difficult for us to read. Now, how do you retain your people? I’m going to answer that actually as one of my closing questions just for yourselves, if you want we move to closing and I’ll actually answer that question as part of my closing. But closing things for the audience. What you know, takeaways, what should these guys do?

Winny: I think build a really safe culture and the environment for your team to learn and spark everyone’s interests, to actually become as talented as they can be and give them the opportunities to learn and grow in your organization.

Mike: Awesome.

Ellen: Yeah, same here. It’s, trying to develop people.

Ellen: It’s one of the things I learned when you teach people, you can see them grow. You can see them blossom. I think it’s a great experience for everyone. You keep people happy. If they can grow in a job, don’t keep them in the same grindstone On the other hand, some people want to stay in their job.

Ellen: Don’t overlook that, that some people are happy what they’re doing, don’t want to change. So have a close look if the person wants development or if a person is just happy doing what he or she wants.

Mike: Yeah. Okay. And Wendy’s there. She’s going to throw us off the stage in a second, but don’t worry. We do a salary survey, take part@treasurysalary.com.

Mike: It’s great. The reason I tell you this is everyone says people leave jobs to salaries. They don’t. They leave because of you guys, if you are a good boss or bad boss. That’s most of the reason and one of the reasons we actually ask people, for people who you know, why do they leave? What are the top reasons?

Mike: It’s about progression. You being a good boss and work life balance. It’s not about the salary. So in order, how do you retain your people? Have a coffee with them. Talk to your people and you as a boss. Or you can also talk to your boss, say, can we have a coffee? My work balance isn’t quite working.

Mike: Or, where am I going to go next? Where’s my progression going to be? If you give that, then you won’t go far wrong. Big round of applause for my panel

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