Why Treasury Expertise Gets You Heard, but Results and Relationships Build Influence | Treasury Careers Podcast

Mike, CEO, The Treasury Recruitment Company: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week’s Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. [00:00:05] Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves [00:00:10] and the treasury profession going to next.

Mike: In this week’s show, delighted to be joined by Julia [00:00:15] Donegan, Senior Global Treasury Director at Newell Brands. Newell Brands is a leading [00:00:20] global consumer goods company with a s- with an amazing portfolio of well-known brands. So you’ve got [00:00:25] Rubbermaid, Sharpie, Graco, Coleman, Yankee Candle, Paper Mate, and many, [00:00:30] many more.

Mike: I had Rob one of her colleagues, boss on the podcast a few months ago, so you [00:00:35] guys can listen. We’ll put a l- little link to that in the show notes. Rob’s got a very different background to Julia, which is [00:00:40] why it’s so fascinating and to persuade you. And Julia, I persuaded her, twisted her [00:00:45] arm, and she was one of my guests on my live panel in Dublin earlier this year.

Mike: She was fantastic. I said, [00:00:50] “Right, you’ve got to do the live… You’ve got to do the podcast with me.” And begrudgingly she said, “Okay then, Mike, y- [00:00:55] until you leave me alone.” So- Yeah … i- if you would, Julia, take us back to the beginning, [00:01:00] how you there first discovered finance and then into treasury. Over to you.

Julia, Senior Global Treasury Director at Newell Brands: Yeah.

Julia: Okay. Well, I suppose [00:01:05] treasury wasn’t really in my long-term plan, but I suppose when I started my career treasury probably wasn’t in [00:01:10] anyone’s really long-term plan. Yeah. It was probably not an area of finance that people were really familiar with. I did my [00:01:15] degree in business. I- when I finished college, I did a master’s in business then.

Julia: [00:01:20] And then I qualified as an accountant, and I worked in kind of different areas training as an accountant, [00:01:25] and hadn’t thought of doing treasury at all until I ended up in a role where [00:01:30] the team was kind of reducing in size, and they said, “Oh, will you work a little bit in this area?” Which was [00:01:35] technically treasury.

Julia: Thought, “Okay, this seems fine. I’ll do whatever.”

Mike: What’s treasury about? Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: Yeah. What’s treasury? Okay. At the [00:01:40] time it, it was really sending faxes to exit money market deals. That was about it. And then an [00:01:45] opportunity arose in Pfizer and they said, “Oh, you’re, you’ve got a bit of experience in treasury.

Julia: You’re an accountant. This looks [00:01:50] like a really good fit. We’ll try it.” So- Yeah … at the time I didn’t really, I don’t think, fully know [00:01:55] what treasury even was. But I said, “Okay, this is a great company to work for. The role looks interesting. I’ll [00:02:00] give it a try.” And then pretty quickly I realized, okay, I really, really like this area.

Mike: I love it. Well, so tell me [00:02:05] about Pfizer then. I know that Pfizer has evolved over the number of years. Yeah. So [00:02:10] this was back in 2010. When you joined the Pfizer team, there was a big team in, in Dublin, wasn’t there? [00:02:15] Yeah. So what was that like?

Julia: Yeah, it was, it was great because there was quite a big [00:02:20] established enough team, but there was also- Yeah

Julia: a mix of new people as well. So people at varying stages of their [00:02:25] career and experience. And I suppose I have a lot of actually friends who are [00:02:30] still in contact with today that I- Yeah … started my work in Pfizer with. It’s kind of a big [00:02:35] community as you’ll know from any event that you go into- Yeah, yeah

Julia: in Dublin. So it kind of gave you the [00:02:40] opportunity to do multiple different roles. So the… At the beginning when I started, they rotated you. You managed, [00:02:45] there was pers- somebody who managed bank documentation. There was forecasting. There was [00:02:50] netting. So you kind of did six months in- each area. And you kind of, I quickly [00:02:55] learned then what areas I really liked, what areas I didn’t like so much.

Julia: And [00:03:00] it gave you the experience in everywhere. Then it kind of changed in how you managed. You looked after countries end to end, which was also [00:03:05] really good because you’re getting the experience. So because of the changing structure as [00:03:10] more and more activity came into Pfizer in Dublin- Yeah … it gave you more and more opportunities to [00:03:15] learn, and really learn the end to end of the treasury process.

Mike: And you talk about the bits that [00:03:20] you loved and the bits that you didn’t love quite so much. They were, you know- Yeah … the, the often, What [00:03:25] were the bits that you think that maybe if you’re listening today and you think, “Oh, I don’t wanna [00:03:30] have to do that.” What were the bits you think that people have to learn, but they might not want to learn?[00:03:35]

Julia: I think for me, it’s bank documentation. And- Right … I don’t think anybody will get into [00:03:40] treasury saying, “Oh, I really wanna spend a lot of time with bank docs.”

Mike: Oh,

Julia: lovely. However, however, to [00:03:45] get anything through, like the biggest projects are all held up by documentation. Right. So you [00:03:50] have to understand, you have to even at a country level, think, “Okay, if I’m gonna get this done in Bhutan, for [00:03:55] example, I’m probably gonna need a wedding signature.

Julia: I’m probably gonna need a notary. I’m gonna have to give myself extra time.” [00:04:00] These are all things that are probably not very fascinating, but they can delay really important projects if you don’t learn them- [00:04:05] Yeah … and learn how to navigate through them, and quickly as well. So I think it’s an area that people don’t [00:04:10] always love to spend a lot of time on, but actually having a good foundational knowledge in it can make a huge difference.

Julia: [00:04:15] Particularly, if you’re, you’re involved in large transformation projects, which involves an awful lot of them. [00:04:20] And banks are improving in terms of more and more is digital, but we’re still, I’m still signing [00:04:25] a lot of documentation every single week physically as well.

Mike: Wow.

Julia: So I think that is an area [00:04:30] that, yes, you might not love your time doing it, but it really is beneficial as you move through your career [00:04:35] to understand it.

Julia: And do you think

Mike: AI… I, certainly for me, I’ve had [00:04:40] it help, but a couple of times I’ve also, you’ve had to use your [00:04:45] knowledge base to actually go, “That sounds all right, but actually that’s wrong.” Or things. Are, are you [00:04:50] seeing that?

Julia: Yes. Oh, definitely. Like you get suggestions to recommendations, but your kind of experience is, “Oh, well, [00:04:55] look, I’ve opened a bank- Yeah

Julia: account in Hungary before. I know I can’t do it through this portal or through these couple of forms. I [00:05:00] know I’m gonna… Someone’s gonna come back out and ask me for X, Y, and Z.” So you do have to combine those two. [00:05:05] Where I do find it great is we have a very centralized team now, and I don’t think that we could [00:05:10] do the job that we do in terms of managing POAs and signatory powers and [00:05:15] all of that for all these countries if we didn’t have, you know, the ability for AI to summarize [00:05:20] the documents, give us not just a translation, because again, they’re huge documents, but give a good [00:05:25] translation- Yeah

Julia: and summaries as well. So it’s really beneficial. But again, you do have to have a grounding [00:05:30] of knowledge for, to make it work for you.

Mike: And I know you’re- we’re friends and [00:05:35] stuff like that, and you are a great people person, but when you were developing your [00:05:40] experience at Pfizer, you know, you became then the treasury team lead.

Mike: You went from being an analyst to [00:05:45] then, the lead and managed a team of seven, relatively early in your [00:05:50] career per se. You know, what was that like for you?

Julia: For me, I actually was quite a quiet [00:05:55] person in the role. Yeah. So I, I found in any particular role I generally tend to stay [00:06:00] quiet for a while until I figured it out.

Julia: I always think that’s beneficial. Learn what everybody’s doing first [00:06:05] before you have too much of an opinion.

Julia: But I think a lot of people at the time were growing their [00:06:10] career. So it was, I won’t say standard, but it was, it was kind of [00:06:15] part of the team developing and growing and new people coming in.

Julia: And I think also having been there [00:06:20] for so long and having worked in every area, you did have the respect of your colleagues because you had the [00:06:25] knowledge to bring you there. You, you weren’t just, you know, someone brought in to do the role. You knew [00:06:30] exactly what you were doing. Like, I’d… knew every area.

Julia: I could be of a great resource to my team as well [00:06:35] because of the experience I’ve had. So-

Julia: I think that was beneficial, and I think, people having worked with me for a [00:06:40] long time could see all the knowledge that I’d gained in that time and also, you know, how I’d pushed myself. I [00:06:45] hadn’t stayed in just operations.

Julia: Any projects that came around, my hand was always the first up [00:06:50] saying, “Okay, yeah, I, I’d love to do that or be involved.”

Mike: So Pfizer more established [00:06:55] operation be- Yeah … but then you joined Newell Brands at the time.

Julia: Yeah.

Mike: It was anything [00:07:00] but, if you like. It was m- sort of essentially a, a startup. You’ve described that a little bit yourself, and I think when [00:07:05] we, we talked about that live on stage and stuff.

Mike: Can you talk us through then the move to Newell, how that came about and [00:07:10] stuff?

Julia: Yeah. Well, I really liked my role in Pfizer, but I realized- Yeah … this [00:07:15] is very established. This is… You know, it’s tweaking perfection at this point. Yeah. I want to [00:07:20] challenge myself a little bit more, and I definitely did that with Newell.

Julia: So moving [00:07:25] to Newell, when we… I was the first- Mm … colleague hired in Dublin. Mm-hmm. [00:07:30] And to essentially move what was a decentralized treasury out of [00:07:35] u- certain areas in Europe into Dublin, and at the same time transform the banking structure and [00:07:40] footprint. So when I started, I have to admit, I got a real shock.

Julia: I didn’t [00:07:45] realize the lovely world I’d lived in. With buttons that I pressed and got reports and, [00:07:50] just, oh, I need to know this information by 11:00, boop, there it is. That’s fine. Yeah. [00:07:55] So it was a bit of a shock, but I had to keep telling myself, you know what it should look like. [00:08:00] Just try and get it there.

Julia: And what’s the key every day? You just need to know what your cash is. Even just [00:08:05] starting with I had to say I need to start with… There’s so many things to change and do, but I need to start with just I [00:08:10] need to actually know how much cash I have this morning and how much cash I’m going to have at the end of the day.

Julia: So kind [00:08:15] of breaking it down into, you know, before all the big changes happen, what do, what’s the [00:08:20] essentials of treasury? And that’s how I coped really. Yeah. Was just taking those kind of [00:08:25] bite-sized chunks saying, “Okay, operations have to have some sort of stability.” and [00:08:30] before I can, you know, make all these massive changes.

Mike: And you were leading a project [00:08:35] that then led to award-winning, so you had- Yeah … 14 cash pools, 179 [00:08:40] intercompany loans, 27 banks. You know, all, all that just spinning in your [00:08:45] head. Yeah. Easy, feet up, you know, nice and relaxed. Well, I say that jokingly because [00:08:50] how did you keep your sanity? How did you keep that focus or, you know, there’s a lot of [00:08:55] pressure on.

Mike: Y- How did you do it? Yeah.

Julia: I don’t know if you could ask my family if I kept my sanity. [00:09:00] Well, again, I suppose, I… What I really did was focus on bringing some stability to the day-to-day. So for [00:09:05] me, the mornings, no matter what, we’re making sure cash looks good.

Julia: And that’s the priority [00:09:10] every single day because at the end of the day, you can do an award-winning project, but if you don’t have any money in accounts to pay [00:09:15] salaries, nobody in the company’s gonna care.

Julia: You know, that had to be the focus. And then, again, just [00:09:20] breaking it up. So what we did was to try and make the project more manageable. We [00:09:25] went live in streams. So we’d said, “Okay, we’re gonna pick a…” Newell was very much at [00:09:30] that point broken out into business units that hadn’t integrated, so we said, “Okay, we’re gonna start with these business [00:09:35] units.”

Julia: We tried to piggyback a little bit on ERP migrations as well, ’cause you’ve got the built-in IT [00:09:40] team. Because when I started it was also COVID.

Mike: Oh,

Julia: yeah … happened a c- few weeks later. So we [00:09:45] didn’t have big project teams. I wasn’t going out to meet people. So we had to try and piggyback on other [00:09:50] projects that were happening as well.

Julia: So one trick we used along the way was jumping in with ERP [00:09:55] migrations and trying to time them as well so that you had a project team that was constructed by somebody else ready to go [00:10:00] from an IT, AP, AR perspective, and then you just come to the treasury and say, “Yeah, yeah. Well, this is what you’d need [00:10:05] to do, for this as well.”

Julia: So that was really helpful. And again, just breaking it down into chunks. Like, we [00:10:10] worked so closely with our banking partners on all of these and developed, like, great relationships [00:10:15] there as well bec- to help with the planning and got their kn- knowledge and insight because they’ve obviously done hundreds of [00:10:20] these projects before.

Julia: So taking their advice as well I think is really important, of their [00:10:25] timelines, what they think will work, won’t work. Because again, they have the experience. They’ve done all these projects. So, [00:10:30] like, working collaboratively as opposed to having a very set idea in your head of, “Okay, this has got to be done by [00:10:35] X time,” when it may not be realistic.

Mike: So that’s all very well and you, [00:10:40] you ma- you, you skated through that in a nice way, but you’re talking to these SAP guys and… [00:10:45] ERP rather, sorry. ERP, and you’re having to translate your [00:10:50] treasury needs to them- Yeah … and also get their buy-in. At the same time, you’re explaining what [00:10:55] treasury is. How did you do it?

Julia: I think also I had to gain some respect [00:11:00] as well- Yeah … because I was brand new in the door, so I was changing everything. So what I had to do was [00:11:05] basically show some of the things that I did worked-

…

Julia: From the beginning. So we did some maybe small [00:11:10] changes, small things, and said, “Look, this worked really well.”

Julia: And we sold them the [00:11:15] benefits saying, “Okay, you’re going live with this ERP. You can go live with [00:11:20] 15 bank accounts for this entity. Or if you work with us, we’ll narrow that down to two and you’re [00:11:25] only creating one payment file.” So every team we had to build a sales pitch basically saying-

Julia: well, look, [00:11:30] if you, when you go live with this, it’s gonna be so much easier for you if you do it this way.”

Julia: So I [00:11:35] think that really, really helped as well. And it’s identifying that essentially you are selling yourself and you’re not [00:11:40] very well known exactly in treasury at the time. It’s saying, “Okay, how can this benefit you? This is [00:11:45] for you, not just me. This is going to show huge… It’s gonna be much easier for you when you go [00:11:50] live to be able to function if you take on our new and improved structure.”[00:11:55]

Mike: And you’ve got that sort of steady state of daily operations and things like [00:12:00] that. But also as you’re trying to move this, move it towards this, [00:12:05] transformation project-

Julia: Yeah …

Mike: how do you… Again, very understanding family, but [00:12:10] also you’re going, “How do I get all these spinning plates?” You know, how do you do it?[00:12:15]

Julia: Well, actually I had a colleague recently describe one of the projects like trying to rebuild a train while it was moving.

Julia: [00:12:20] So that, that is a bit what it was like. I think for me, I just kept the focus on what we [00:12:25] wanted. When I would get over very whelming and think, “Oh, there’s so much to do, but what are we trying to achieve?”

Julia: [00:12:30] It’s simple what you’re trying to achieve. Reduce the number of banking partners, reduce the number of intercompany relationships, [00:12:35] improve cash concentration, improve automation. So I would he- I would keep [00:12:40] pulling out that mantra to myself, and also for the team. Every kind of three to six months I’d look back and say, “Look, [00:12:45] we had 27 banking partners, now we’ve 20.

Julia: We had 179 intercompany relationships, now [00:12:50] we’ve got 50.” Yeah. And you kind of had to keep going back to make yourself go [00:12:55] forward and say, “We’re doing it. We’re actually achieving it. Even though we’ve got so much to go, we are [00:13:00] making progress all the time.” Keeping the mind, yeah. Because I think it’s a habit that I think everybody has, [00:13:05] is always just thinking what has to be done next.

Julia: And when you say, “I’ve achieved [00:13:10] this. Well, then I could definitely do the next bit.”

Julia: And that’s how I’ve tried to keep myself and the team going as [00:13:15] well.

Mike: And you talked there about team two or three times, which is fantastic, but you were the first hire in [00:13:20] Dublin to- Yeah … now a global team of 11.

Mike: How have you [00:13:25] changed, or what advice would you give to people? Obviously you’re a perfect manager. You’re a perfect, [00:13:30] you know, coach and director. And I mean, this is what we’ve talked about.

Julia: My team may listen to this, so I might have to be honest. [00:13:35]

Mike: Well, d- get them to listen in the pub. It’ll be fine.

Mike: They’ll, they’ll be fine. But joking [00:13:40] aside, how have, how has, how have you evolved? How has your leadership style evolved, you [00:13:45] know, as the team has, you know, expanded?

Julia: Yeah. Well, I, [00:13:50] going from a c- one or two people to suddenly having a team is an adjustment.

Julia: Because you have to [00:13:55] give stuff away, and I thought I would struggle with that, but actually [00:14:00] given my workload, I, I found it very easy.

Julia: Yeah, so it was bringing everybody along on the [00:14:05] journey as well because it’s not, you know, a date. Like, it’s not stable day to day when a lot of the people were [00:14:10] hired, so it’s bringing them on that journey with you. But I think having st- I started as a manager, [00:14:15] so I got to learn, do what I need to do.

Julia: Then I was made senior manager, then I was [00:14:20] given another region, then it was kind of moved and moved and like that. So I feel like I got to [00:14:25] progress through the roles. Yeah. And the company, [00:14:30] Newel, has really developed me through saying, “Okay, she’s managed this much now. She’s stabilized that. She’s ready for [00:14:35] the next bit.”

Julia: So allowing me to kind of learn, get to know what I’m doing [00:14:40] now, and then further build on and add to it piecemeal by piecemeal, as opposed to, I suppose, if you [00:14:45] had have started that original role with everything, I think it would’ve been very hard to develop-

Julia: grow, [00:14:50] and also maybe achieve what you needed to.

Julia: So I feel from a career [00:14:55] perspective, I’ve been given work at a timing when I was ready for it- Yeah … [00:15:00] and able to move to the next step. And I, I have to admit, it, it’s been great actually having a team [00:15:05] around you as well to have the chance to develop other people [00:15:10] as well, and to watch other people grow as they’ve joined the teams and joined the projects.

Julia: And having the [00:15:15] opportunities in an organization like this i- is great as well. ,

Mike: What’s your, been your ethos around that? You, because I don’t want to [00:15:20] skip past that yet. I, ’cause y- you and I have talked about this before, but, maybe for the listeners, [00:15:25] what’s your ethos about getting those people, getting them along on that train journey as you’re bolting [00:15:30] bits on?

Julia: Yeah. I think just being very open, [00:15:35] transparent, and very willing to transfer your knowledge is really important. [00:15:40] So as a team, we regroup really regularly. Even if you’re not working on the same [00:15:45] things, we, we all give updates saying, “Okay, this is what we’re working on. This is what’s important this [00:15:50] week,” so that everybody’s constantly seeing what everybody’s doing.

Julia: They’re interacting. They’re learning from, even if it’s [00:15:55] not actually your role, they’re learning from that. And again, normally it starts with little, [00:16:00] you know, operations, then, okay, this would be a project that could develop you a bit further. [00:16:05] And from there, seeing how people grow, and also making sure that you put people in the right positions.

Julia: [00:16:10] Everybody’s different, and learning each of your individual team members to get the most out of [00:16:15] them is really important as well. Not just assuming everyone’s gonna like this area and wanna do this, and [00:16:20] they’re not good at that area, okay, that’s not good enough. Yeah. Where learning how to get the most out of your [00:16:25] individuals is important.

Julia: I think that’s, you have to look at each person as a complete and other [00:16:30] individual and treat them that way as well.

Mike: Amazing. Now, I’m gonna keep… I love this train analogy [00:16:35] ’cause I’ve just, it’s, it’s led into this next question easily. It’s like I planned it, but I didn’t. What [00:16:40] do you look for when you’re looking to hire people?

Mike: We don’t normally talk, we’re not talking necessarily [00:16:45] recruitment per se, but more as a candidate aspect. If someone’s listening today and they’re looking at different roles, [00:16:50] they’re going out there, and using the train, that what… You know, someone’s got a green flag, and you’re going, “Yeah, that’s a [00:16:55] really good thing.”

Mike: Someone, then maybe they’ve got a bit of a red or amber. You’re going, “Oh, maybe they’re not gonna [00:17:00] fit with us.” And then we’re not talking about your team, we’re talking about just when you’re doing hiring. What are the things that you’re [00:17:05] going, “Okay, that’s not gonna fit”? And you and I met a lot of treasury professionals recently in [00:17:10] Europe and things.

Mike: You might see them and think, “Okay, that, they’re, they wouldn’t fit with us.” What, what would it [00:17:15] be?

Julia: I think the fact that we are constantly [00:17:20] changing. Okay. The person needs to have the personality to be okay with that.

Julia: To be [00:17:25] okay with the fact that there’s, you know, your day is not gonna look like you thought it was a lot of the days.

Julia: [00:17:30] To be in a moving organization has to, is really important. So you can look at the [00:17:35] technical, which obviously very important. You want a strong grounding in treasury. Me, I’m an [00:17:40] accountant. I love to see an accountant. They are normally very good at understanding other aspects of the [00:17:45] company, like tax and accounting and-

Julia: audit and all of that, and communicate very easily with them. [00:17:50] But it is about the team at the time and the fit of that person, how you think that they will [00:17:55] cope. Like, we hired someone recently for a kind of more project role and, and I [00:18:00] did very clearly say, like, “You’re going to have to sit between treasury and IT and [00:18:05] communicate both of our needs, which is not always going to be very straightforward because we both speak very different [00:18:10] languages.

Julia: Your job is really gonna be almost like translation.”

Julia: And, you know, that person is a very [00:18:15] unique type of person that you want for that role, where the person for that role might not be good for another role. So [00:18:20] again, it’s about the role, but also you want somebody who’s going to be able to fit in with the team and [00:18:25] as it changes.

Julia: Because your role today may not look the same in three weeks, four weeks, as we’re [00:18:30] constantly growing. And you want someone who wants to develop their career and really learn and be comfortable with saying, “Okay, [00:18:35] this is not the role that I started with six months ago, but I’m really glad to keep learning and keep [00:18:40] developing.”

Mike: Now, I don’t want to deep dive on technology and AI but, it obviously is [00:18:45] a, top of mind. And you talked about that person translating, you know, between your IT guys and things. I [00:18:50] know that you’ve talked about you mentioned building treasury teams, or systems rather, with [00:18:55] workarounds, like using your bank, you know, to help you as a [00:19:00] TMS type thing.

Mike: How do you decide what, what’s gonna work and not, or, you know, [00:19:05] how, how do you deliver that stuff?

Julia: For me when I started we didn’t have an u- up and [00:19:10] running TMS, so I just… And I wasn’t gonna get one any time soon. They [00:19:15] were- Yeah … rolling out one. It would take years. So I just looked at what I, what I needed.

Julia: So what [00:19:20] do I need at the end of the day, and what can do that for me? And that’s where, yes, I did use some of my banking platforms [00:19:25] like a TMS and fed in all the data reporting through there, and pulled out, balances [00:19:30] and forecasts and everything through that. Right now our system is S/4HANA [00:19:35] for our TMS, and it’s going to be a company-wide…

Julia: It’s a company-wide initiative. So [00:19:40] it’s not always a perfect fit for treasury. Yeah … but one thing I’ve learned early on and up in the project, and [00:19:45] probably mistakes were made from the very beginning from, you know, both sides, was m- thinking that [00:19:50] what treasury wants is clearly understandable to somebody else.

Julia: So now we take [00:19:55] a lot more time at each stage saying, “Okay, this is what we do now. This is what we very much need from [00:20:00] it. It needs at a minimum to be able to do X, Y, and Z, otherwise that won’t work.” So just [00:20:05] being much more involved from an early stage, and the planning and ensuring that [00:20:10] what treasury needs is very clearly explained and no assumptions are made.[00:20:15]

Julia: And being more and more vocal as part of these projects as well because, again, it’s not just treasury, it’s all the [00:20:20] different teams are touched by these systems. Yeah. So but making sure that from a treasury perspective we’re very clear on [00:20:25] what we need, and presenting sometimes over and over again, “This is what we do today.

Julia: This [00:20:30] is what we need out of it. Are we there yet? No. Okay, let’s go back-

Julia: and look at what’s movable [00:20:35] and what’s not.” Obviously there’s some compromises. Okay, you can’t have it in that format, that’s fine. But we know we can’t [00:20:40] be missing an opening balance or we can’t do a forecast. That kind of thing.

Mike: A- and you and I have just got [00:20:45] back from the International Treasurers Conference EuroFinance. And as you and I were [00:20:50] just talking about before the show, there were some that were AI-focused and, oh, [00:20:55] it’s great and things, but they weren’t, you know, not… What’s the word? There was a lot of fluff. [00:21:00] There is a lot of, you know, noise around AI.

Mike: Mm-hmm. And, you know, n- AI [00:21:05] native, that’s the latest phrase and things. What do you think is [00:21:10] realistic, and what still feels like noise stroke a pipe dream sort of thing?

Julia: [00:21:15] Yeah. I suppose I’m lazily very looking for someone to show me a presentation and me to get up the next morning and say, [00:21:20] “Okay, I can implement that now today.”

Mike: Yeah. Nailed it.

Julia: I haven’t seen that yet. I’m really [00:21:25] looking forward to someday seeing that. I think where, as I said, it works really, [00:21:30] really well is all around our documentation aspects. Also, you know, giving our criteria. I’m opening a [00:21:35] new bank account here, what would I need? It’s really good at that for us so far.[00:21:40]

Julia: We haven’t implemented a lot around forecasting for it, particularly, like, a little bit [00:21:45] for the longer term, but particularly for our liquidity management style. We haven’t [00:21:50] really implemented anything there yet. I don’t know if we’re ready to. [00:21:55] Our data is still in a couple of different sources. I… It’s not something that I [00:22:00] would fully trust to do, but would like to develop further.

Julia: Also, I think as a team, like, [00:22:05] everyone just is assuming that, you know, you can just implement something AI. Yeah. But you [00:22:10] still also have to learn how to implement it effectively. And when you’re a really, really busy team that’s [00:22:15] constantly, working on projects, operations, everything, [00:22:20] finding time for each individual colleague to go and just learn how they’re going to improve everything can be [00:22:25] quite difficult as well.

Julia: Even though we all want to improve and we all want to do it. So it’s trying to make that [00:22:30] a priority. And trying to work with your organization that you’re getting understanding of all the tools that are out [00:22:35] there as well, because I think sometimes we always, we don’t always know of the resources that are available within our [00:22:40] organizations as well and what can be used.

Julia: So I think finding the time as well is beco- is [00:22:45] often a challenge for us in, in our team, to say, “Okay, we really could probably do something here, but [00:22:50] when are, how are we gonna find the time to save the time?” But I think that’s treasury, whether it’s AI [00:22:55] or any other project in treasury, it’s probably similar for most teams.

Mike: And you and I have [00:23:00] talked about keeping treasury… You know, I’ve got my session coming up at [00:23:05] AFP, and one of the key things, I’m talking to three amazing treasurers about it. They’re amazing [00:23:10] ladies. And we’re gonna sit down and when we’ve been having our briefing calls, we’ve talked about [00:23:15] how, your treasury expertise and technical expertise gets you the seat at the table.

Mike: Brilliant, you’re in the [00:23:20] room. But then how do you keep treasury [00:23:25] relevant and strategic in the conversations when you’re talking to senior leadership? How are you [00:23:30] presenting it? Is it all about, “Well, these are the results.” You talked about some of the projects you’ve done with your team, but [00:23:35] how do you then communicate that to the C-level and other people?

Julia: I think the results get you to the [00:23:40] table. Yeah. But they don’t keep you there.

Julia: It gives you the little bit of respect, like yeah, the EuroFinance Award, the [00:23:45] Adam Smith Award. Yeah. It kind of lifts people’s heads up and says- Yeah … okay. We’ll pay attention to them. But it doesn’t keep you there. [00:23:50] Yeah. What you need to do is understand what is it they want, whether it be, you know- [00:23:55] Cash planning.

Julia: What, what is it that the issue is? Yeah. And then you have to be involved in the planning. [00:24:00] Even if it’s not technically treasury, you have to think, okay, how can we as treasury work with other [00:24:05] teams? How can we deliver what’s needed? For me, like a huge focus of my role, I [00:24:10] often look back and think when everything’s going on, my job is to make sure that cash flows freely [00:24:15] wherever it needs to be, whenever it needs to be there.

Julia: And, they don’t wanna know about [00:24:20] restricted countries and all of this. I have to keep money circulating in the system. [00:24:25] And, you know, you’re working… There’s so many different ways to do that, and working with different teams. So I think the key [00:24:30] is not just to see your role as, as I’m treasury, I do this.

Julia: You think, how [00:24:35] can I work with tax? How can I work with these other teams? How can… Tax may normally come up with the plans, [00:24:40] but maybe I’ve worked in treasury long enough to think, okay, I have some ideas here. I can pitch it to them before they [00:24:45] come to me and say, “How can we get this done?”

Mike: Yeah. Getting out in front of it.

Julia: [00:24:50] Yes, exactly. Because yeah, the results, they only get you in the room. They don’t keep you there.

Mike: [00:24:55] And you’ve done all this with a busy family life as well, and, you know, wanted to [00:25:00] touch on that. And we, we talked about this a little bit a couple of weeks ago. That how do you make [00:25:05] it balance, or what advice would you give to other people with, you know, that are listening today that are [00:25:10] in a similar situation?

Julia: Yeah. I don’t know if I’m great at balance always. [00:25:15] I, I think that any parent always feels when they’re doing well as a parent, they’re not doing as well in work, and [00:25:20] vice versa, or sometimes you’re just doing terrible in both. Yeah. Which is often how I feel, to be honest. [00:25:25] I think understanding that, particularly again since COVID, that [00:25:30] working hard is not necessarily working 12, 14 hours a day in front of a [00:25:35] computer, that it’s working smart.

Julia: It’s saying, “Okay, I… My remit is global, [00:25:40] so I could have a call at 12 o’clock tonight. I could have a call at 7:00 in the morning.” [00:25:45] So when my kids sometimes need to be picked up for school, I’ll block out the calendar and say, “Okay, I’m gonna go to [00:25:50] this,” or, “I’m gonna go to this activity,” or, “I’m gonna volunteer for half an hour at the library this morning.”

Julia: And it’s about [00:25:55] getting that balance. So it’s instead of thinking you have to have these huge breaks, it’s taking those 15 minutes, that half an hour [00:26:00] to be present is what I try and work on as well. And making your own [00:26:05] calendar work for you, like having a global remit is, can be quite difficult, but at the same time, you can make it work [00:26:10] for you, as in I can take an hour or two in the middle of the day knowing that I’m gonna be on to whatever time tonight.

Julia: Yeah. And [00:26:15] use that time, as opposed to thinking, like years ago when I started my career, I kind of, I always thought that you had to be [00:26:20] available every second, at every moment, glued to your computer. Where you can [00:26:25] bring flexibility, and as long as you’re delivering and meeting everything that you should, nobody has an [00:26:30] issue with that.

Julia: And again, that’s where I really like working for Newell, it’s nobody’s watching your clock. It’s very [00:26:35] much what about you’re doing, what are you delivering, what are you achieving, not, you know, were you sitting at your desk at 1:00 [00:26:40] till 1:30. Yeah. Which, you know, is great within an organization, but I think that’s also gets the most out of people as [00:26:45] well.

Mike: And you’re talking in there about achieving and things like that. If you’ve got someone that [00:26:50] is maybe sitting at their desk in a com- they’re comfortable in their treasury role, they’re, you know, [00:26:55] getting on, they’re achieving, but they know there’s something more. They’re craving more and things. Yeah.

Mike: Obviously speak to [00:27:00] you and say, “Yeah, great, you know, here’s my resume, CV.” But you know, what are, what are you [00:27:05] saying… You know, you pro- probably experienced those points in your career. What would you encourage them to [00:27:10] do?

Julia: I would say where I grew was putting my hands up for projects.

Julia: You know, being the first [00:27:15] one to say, “Yes, I want to do that.

Julia: Yes, I’m happy to do that.” And when a problem, also when a [00:27:20] problem came along, offering a solution, even if it technically wasn’t my problem, of [00:27:25] volunteering that solution and saying, “Okay, I think I have an idea how we could do this,” and then you can get more and more involved. [00:27:30] You’re asked to speak up more, and that really works as well.

Julia: But I think not just [00:27:35] treasury projects as well. Look for… There’s always organizational projects that you can get involved in as well. Like I said, even [00:27:40] the ERP migrations, being the treasury representative on these projects. Just [00:27:45] once you understand operations, I would say push yourself outside that then.[00:27:50]

Mike: And your, you talk about volunteering there and, you know, putting your hand up. [00:27:55] IACT. We can’t, you know, but say on this. Can you talk about the Irish [00:28:00] Association? I got the four of you on an amazing panel. People can… We’ll put, again, that in the show notes maybe. [00:28:05] You guys were very kind and joined me.

Mike: Can you talk about, why, [00:28:10] associations like that exist? Why they should, they’re good for people? What, what would you say? [00:28:15]

Julia: I think, actually, the IACT is very, it’s a very welcoming organization if you are a junior [00:28:20] as well. And what is it? Sorry, what is it? It’s the Irish Association- Irish Association of-

Julia: of Corporate Treasurers.

Julia: I would say it’s very [00:28:25] welcoming for juniors as well. Yeah. I think it’s a great way to build your community and your knowledge. [00:28:30] And we reach out to each other all the time. Like, I’ll have people reach out and say, “Oh, I’ve moved jobs, and I’m just, I’m now [00:28:35] looking after this country, which I’ve never done before.

Julia: How do you manage that?” People are very open [00:28:40] to you reaching out as well. They have really good topics that they cover as well. The updates, the [00:28:45] conference is always very good every year. And it’s a great networking experience. Because [00:28:50] treasury, a lot of the time, isn’t just technical. It’s about how you build relationships.

Julia: And [00:28:55] in Ireland, particularly, you’re gonna continue to have those relationships because you’re gonna move roles, and then somebody that you [00:29:00] knew from somewhere is going to be in that organization, or even be able to fill you in, [00:29:05] “Oh, you’re looking to move there. This is what it’s like.” So I think throughout your career, you need to [00:29:10] build your network, and the IACT is a great way to build both your knowledge and your network.[00:29:15]

Julia: And is very, very welcoming to juniors and ha- really very much encourages participation [00:29:20] as well.

Mike: Yeah. I know we, you know, one of the recent episodes, John James Dunn, he was [00:29:25] again shared the stage with. And he was one of the key things he’s been pushing is about the [00:29:30] earlier stage treasury professionals getting involved in the association and, and that’s been a [00:29:35] fantastic thing.

Mike: If you look back on that, is that a key thing you think is… [00:29:40] I sometimes get these junior folk going, “Well, yeah, but I’m only a treasury analyst.” And like, yeah, [00:29:45] that’s where you start. Put your hand up. You know, hand out some leaflets. Be, go to the conference. Yeah. That’s a [00:29:50] good way to start.

Julia: I think so, and that’s probably something I started a little bit too late in my career.

Julia: [00:29:55] I didn’t start the networking earlier. Again, I worked for a bigger organization and with a lot more [00:30:00] people, so there wasn’t always the opportunities to go to these things. Yeah. And also, yeah, I [00:30:05] was, I know you always find it surprising, but I’m quite the introvert. So I do don’t always find these [00:30:10] things, in the very beginning particularly when I didn’t know people, I found these things very difficult to do.

Julia: But then as you do them more and [00:30:15] more, y- you build up your network more and more. And I will say one thing that we’ve been credited for our team here [00:30:20] in Dublin is I very much give everybody the opportunity. When, you know, the ICT conference come up every year, I’m [00:30:25] like, “Okay, we’ve got two spots. Work it out, mean, between yourselves whoever, which two wanna go.”

Julia: [00:30:30] We’re very encouraging of sending to different things in the development from a very young age. Because [00:30:35] it’s no p- like, a lot of the time if you’re waiting till you’re very late on in your career, you know a lot of what they’re [00:30:40] covering anyway in some of the sessions, where it’s really beneficial.

Julia: And also to talk to people and [00:30:45] think, “Okay, that, that role actually they’re doing sounds great. I’d love to work towards that. How do I get [00:30:50] there?” Yeah. Where I probably took a, a while to get where I’m going because, one, I didn’t plan it, and two, [00:30:55] I, I didn’t get enough advice along the way probably as well.

Julia: Where if you can start that earlier in your career, you [00:31:00] can probably cut a few years off getting to where you wanna go.

Mike: Yeah, yeah. And [00:31:05] you worked through great advice and stuff and, you know, I mean, this is just brilliant. I love it. And with [00:31:10] yourself, you know, you and I have just come back from various conferences.

Mike: We do, you know, lots of different interaction with people. [00:31:15] Are there any areas we haven’t covered that you think that, you know, if someone’s listening today that they need to [00:31:20] focus on? I know we spoke about it a little bit earlier, cash was one, but any other areas that haven’t we [00:31:25] sort of touched on that you think, “Oh, yeah, I wish I said this more”?

Julia: Yeah. Well, I, I think we… Everybody, [00:31:30] not everybody knows, but you have an idea what you should technically cover in treasury. But I, I think we talk about networking in [00:31:35] treasury. Yeah. But do it in your organization. Do it with your banks. Uh-huh. Because a lot of the time I find in [00:31:40] treasury the problem that hits my desk, it’s not really my problem.

Julia: It’s a problem that’s come from somewhere else and can be solved by [00:31:45] somewhere else, someone else. My job is to find the right way out of it. And being able to pick up the [00:31:50] phone to someone within the organization and say, “Can you help me? This just happened.” Or someone within your bank [00:31:55] saying, “Look, I know it’s 7:00 in the evening, but I need somebody to help me.”

Julia: And [00:32:00] having the comfort to do that. You have to build a bit of a relationship before you can comfortably do that, [00:32:05] and I think that’s a really important part not to be overlooked. I do remember you know, a, a [00:32:10] boss gave me great advice years ago and said… You know, I was going into, like, more and more technical areas [00:32:15] of treasury, and he said, “Yeah, you’re, you’re good at the technical side.”

Julia: Yeah. He said, “But you’re actually very good with people.” And he said, [00:32:20] “Use that. When you want something done, use that.” And I was like, “Okay.” Yeah. And it kind of stuck [00:32:25] with me since, and it, it definitely rings true. So don’t just build your technical knowledge. Build your [00:32:30] network. Remember that everyone that you work with throughout the organization or your bank, you may [00:32:35] have to phone tomorrow and say, “Help.”

Julia: Yeah. And so you have a network to do that [00:32:40] with, and it makes your life so much easier when you can do it that way as well.

Mike: Amazing. We’re gonna [00:32:45] put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so that people can connect to you, and we know this. But [00:32:50] advice for those… Your summary of advice, if you like, for junior guys, mid-level [00:32:55] guys, senior, you know, throughout the different levels.

Mike: What, what takeaways would you give? You know, you’ve [00:33:00] heard the podcast and stuff. What, what are you thinking?

Julia: I think from a junior perspective, [00:33:05] learn every area. Yeah. Get as involved as you can. Even if it’s an area that you don’t particularly love the sound of, [00:33:10] learn it, move on from it. Have it in your back pocket.

Julia: Yeah. I think also [00:33:15] junior to middle, ask for advice. Look at study people around you. Think, how did they get to where they’re [00:33:20] going? One thing that I noticed when I worked in Pfizer was a lot of the people who made senior were there from the early [00:33:25] days. So when the new role came up, I thought, “Okay, one thing I’ve learned is if you’re there from the beginning and you work [00:33:30] well, it helps.”

Julia: Yeah. So with your career development. So again, watch those [00:33:35] around you. How have they developed? Where have they gotten to where they need to? And also, I suppose for [00:33:40] senior and my level, it’s that you can never stay still. There’s always an [00:33:45] improvement. We can talk about AI, but you can also talk about the banking structure.

Julia: It’s, you know, how we can change, how [00:33:50] regulations change, how structures change, how models change. You can never, ever [00:33:55] stay still. If you wanna do well in treasury, staying still is not an option. Yeah. And there [00:34:00] is no point. You might have an afternoon where you can rest on your laurels, but that’s about it.

Mike: That’s it.

Julia: Yeah. [00:34:05] That’s it. So there’s my brief advice.

Mike: Amazing. [00:34:10] Knew you’d be brilliant. Thank you very much, Julia. You’re an absolute superstar, and looking forward to seeing you very soon. [00:34:15]

Julia: Thanks, Mike.

Mike: Thank you.