Why Treasury Careers Are About More Than Salary and Job Titles | Treasury Careers Podcast

Mike Richards, CEO & Founder, The Treasury Recruitment Company: [00:00:00] So welcome to this week’s Treasury Career Corner Podcast. This one is a week with a bit of a difference. We have a guest that joins me, but it’s lovely Katie Hardie who works [00:00:10] here at the Treasury Recruitment Company and has worked here at the amazing Treasury Recruitment company for the past seven years, as she told me the other day.

Mike: We have some [00:00:20] other anniversaries coming up. We are approaching, it’s eight years on the podcast. That started a year before Katie joined me. Then we also have 24 [00:00:30] years as a business serving all you treasury professionals for so long. We thought it’s time we got together and talked, gave you some [00:00:40] more career advice, but also reflected on maybe what we’ve seen in the market and how it’s changed.

Mike: So it’s not a [00:00:50] state of the market update. I thought we compare notes on what Katie is hearing. She’s talking to treasurers to treasury analysts every day, just as am I. And I [00:01:00] wanted to ask her some questions. So Katie, as you said, seven years this week. Amazing seven years.

Katie Hardie: It is, yes.

Mike: When you think back, … how has it [00:01:10] changed, and what feels maybe different from seven years ago? Over to you, I’ll shut up.

Katie: Yeah, I think that there’s a difference in client [00:01:20] expectations and candidate expectations.

Katie: So with candidates, When I first started, it was all about what’s the job, what’s the salary. And I was here [00:01:30] when COVID hit- Yeah … as well. So since then there’s been a lot more focus on flexible working. Like what’s the progression and development [00:01:40] in the role.

Katie: What’s the manager like as a leader within the business. A lot to do with culture even though obviously we’re seeing hybrid working. But there’s still a [00:01:50] way of maintaining that culture even if it is hybrid. And I think it’s around a lot more focus on what’s the new role gonna give me versus what I’m [00:02:00] already doing.

Mike: And that, sorry, and I just want to jump in. And you that- Yeah … I know that you and I have talked about job titles

Mike: Someone walks in and says, “I want to recruit a treasury manager,” and it could be at one [00:02:10] level. And another, another person says, “Oh, I want to recruit a tre-” and it’s a much higher level.

Mike: It’s virtually- Yeah …. head of treasury, but they mean completely different things.

Mike: You’ve said, “I’ve got to get on the phone with [00:02:20] someone.” And their salaries, wide range. We’ll come to salaries later, but how do you think- Yeah … that has changed?

Katie: It’s changed massively. Again, I think the big shift is it’s gone from being [00:02:30] quite black and white coming from retail and fashion, which is-

Katie: quite open-ended. When I first started it was very black and white within treasury, whereas now it’s it’s quite [00:02:40] gray. Companies as a whole, regardless of whether they’ve got treasury functions or not, different job titles mean different things depending on the size of the team, depending on the [00:02:50] size of the business.

Katie: But I think what I’ve seen in recent years is that a lot of candidates are focused on chasing job titles. Whereas actually [00:03:00] sometimes a role at the same level but in a bigger business can give them that progression that they need from a technical and a softer skill set. And [00:03:10] clients are coming up with weird and wonderful t- job titles when they’re putting new roles into the treasury team.

Katie: There’s been a massive shift on that side.

Mike: And I had that with New [00:03:20] York, didn’t I? Was recruiting into New York. Yeah, you did.

Katie: Yeah.

Mike: And the client was insistent. They weren’t hung up on job titles. The job title had to just be this one, and it had to just be senior treasury manager.

Mike: I [00:03:30] went, “Look…” And then they were saying, “Why aren’t you getting me the right people?” I went, “Because people don’t want that job title. ‘Cause they’re already- a senior treasury manager where they are. They want a deputy treasurer title because it’s a direct [00:03:40] report into the treasurer. This is what it does.

Mike: Actually, they eventually, they listened to me. They retitled it and actually managed to recruit it direct, which was very frustrating if I’m [00:03:50] honest. But the fact was I gave best advice to the client, which- Is my job and I think, people do listen to us so yeah

Katie: And I think, you’ve been doing it for twen-24 [00:04:00] years now but I do think there is a need to consult with clients and candidates alike when it comes to job titles, and I think not everything is black [00:04:10] and white. And clients seem to be a lot more open to the advice that we’re giving, and candidates have started to become a little bit more that way as well.

Katie: And I [00:04:20] think there’s a big shift in terms of the technical capability. I predominantly for the first, I don’t know, five years- Yeah focused purely [00:04:30] on Europe on Europe, and there was never a big focus as such on you have to have this qualification. It was quite fluid, and they were very much “Oh, [00:04:40] I want somebody who’s all round with the treasury kind of 360 skill set.”

Katie: But then the whole thing shifted again because there’s a lot more [00:04:50] focus on they want to have somebody who can do the day to day but also take more of that helicopter view and that [00:05:00] strategic viewpoint to support a lot more in building from foundation to first class level- of treasury [00:05:10] departments.

Katie: But as I said, you’ve been here for 24 years, so what have you seen that’s sort of changed?

Mike: The technical skills with a treasury person, they get you– They [00:05:20] get you the interview and then… And they get you through the door. They get you onto the long list. You look at it, you’ve got to have a basic level. Then the shortlist and then we present it to a client, and then the client says, [00:05:30] “Who do you like?

Mike: Who do you think is best?” I suggest the best people, and then they meet them. And then that’s where the technical bit stops because then it’s about, about [00:05:40] people’s LinkedIn profiles, about people’s resumes, about the difference they’d made at their businesses.

Mike: And I think too many people get caught up in the day job and don’t realize, “I’ve gotta make a difference.” So I [00:05:50] think Treasury has evolved. It used to, back in the day, 24 years ago, we were still coming out of an age where treasury professionals had a higher [00:06:00] salary because they was the specialists.

Mike: And who’s gonna look after money? Oh, that’s our treasury guy. He sits in the corner office. Off you go, give the money. Now, and then treasurery’s “Oh actually I [00:06:10] don’t want to be in the corner office. I wanna be part of the business.” We… Yeah, they battled through it and actually people getting in the mainstream and that from that now treasury teams — you [00:06:20] know I’m speaking at AFP later this year, that’s one of the key things we– I’m talking about.

Mike: I’ve got three amazing ladies joining me about how their voice is heard as treasury professionals [00:06:30] with the business. And that’s what we’re going to explore, that actually it’s about how they influence and how they connect treasury to the wider business.

Mike: [00:06:40] AI coming along technology, treasury teams have always been lean.

Mike: I think that’s actually you know The focus If you like has come back to [00:06:50] treasury teams Coming to the forefront

Mike: Treasury Teams that will take Ownership and Be able To operate More broadly within The business Itself

Katie: I think candidates in [00:07:00] general- are asking for a lot more and as well as clients are asking for a lot more. You know from your experience of if you had a handful of [00:07:10] candidate calls per day, for instance- what are the kind of key things that they’re going to ask?

Katie: ‘Cause that’s definitely shifted.

Mike: I’m doing quite a lot of recruitment in the [00:07:20] East Coast of the US at the moment, and again you and I, the way we split it is I do the US at the moment focus and we will recruit there. But you and I, we split UK, and then [00:07:30] Europe you’re doing more of the focus.

Mike: The fact is, first port of call is you for Europe, me for the US, and then either of us for UK. And I say all those things [00:07:40] because each of those markets is different. In Europe, and I’ll ask you about this in a minute, I think the balance of working sometimes is secondary to [00:07:50] salary.

Mike: Whereas In the US, salary number one by a mile. I also think in the US they, some of the roles [00:08:00] I’m working on are four, maybe even five days a week in office because, for instance, when I’ve got one of my clients, they’re a startup insurance company, [00:08:10] and they’re saying, “We want someone in there,” but actually I can get people in four days a week.

Mike: And they’re actually, “Yeah, that’s okay ’cause I want to be sitting next to the CEO and the [00:08:20] CFO and the treasurer as we build things.” They don’t want it to always be like that. And I said, it’s not going to be. Over time it will become three days a week in office, and it might actually do that [00:08:30] sooner.”

Mike: But the number one is, first question, what’s it paying? okay. Whereas certainly when I’ve spoken to European candidates, I’ll ask you this first before I talk more. Would you say that [00:08:40] they, within Europe it’s a bit more what’s the work balance, and then we’ll come back to UK? What would you say?

Katie: Yeah. I think in Europe over the whole of the seven years . taking into account – [00:08:50] COVID, they always had more flexible working in Europe than- Yeah anywhere that I’ve dealt with before. I think that really hasn’t changed, but I the [00:09:00] norm for Europe tends to be two or three days in the office maximum.

Katie: And I think, with candidates in general that becomes one of the first [00:09:10] questions to ask. And I think the shift from a client perspective is that they have seen that if they open up the role slightly in terms [00:09:20] of flexibility, so two days a week, you’ll find that the reach, ’cause in s- in some of Europe it’s quite small and niche.

Katie: So if I take Luxembourg, for [00:09:30] instance the treasury market isn’t as big as th- the likes of London, for instance. . But if they say only two days a week in the office, then it opens [00:09:40] up the pool to people who may be near to Belgium and can drive and do a two-hour drive twice a week- isn’t a problem.

Katie: So it opens up the pool quite a [00:09:50] lot. And that’s, I think in Europe there’s always been yes, they want to know salaries, and I think it’s become more of a problem over the course of the last three to four [00:10:00] years I’d say where there is a massive challenge between the level of experience you get versus the salary that they’re asking for.

Katie: There’s [00:10:10] a lot more jobs versus candidates and they are demanding more money. And you know when I’ve been at Eurofinance and you know working with different associations a lot of [00:10:20] clients come and said, is it just a challenge for us?” And no, it’s not. It’s a challenge across Europe.

Katie: And it seems to have sprinkled out into UK as well. I don’t know if [00:10:30] that’s the same in, in America where salaries are quite important and first and foremost.

Mike: I think they are important to the individual first and foremost. But then quite [00:10:40] quickly you get salary hybrid, and then what’s the job?

Mike: Yeah. And I think actually that’s a key thing

Mike: Again, I think people get salary matters . But then could you be in [00:10:50] another bad situation? Yeah, that’s one- Yeah … of the key things that, eh, i- the short term increase sometimes is less valuable, because you’re not getting that broader [00:11:00] exposure.

Mike: You and I have talked about job descriptions and hiring,

Mike: and in fact, I… I spoke at a conference in Texas a couple of years ago, and I said to [00:11:10] everyone in the audience, “Job descriptions. Who’s put IT and technology on it? And being an AI.”

Mike: And they went, “Hands up.” Fantastic. Said, “Okay, keep your hand up if you know about AI [00:11:20] yourselves.” And they were like oh,” and all these hands faded away. I went, ‘Yeah, so you’re gonna try and hire someone that can do AI and technology that’s only just…” So ChatGPT two years ago, if you’d [00:11:30] said that, chat what?

Mike: It’s but you’re going to ask people to code in LLMs. You’re gonna ask them to do this, but you can’t measure it yourself, so you don’t know if that’s good or [00:11:40] bad. I said, “Look, I think you need… There needs to be a bit of reality check there.” I know you and I have talked about that across maybe UK and Europe.

Mike: What’s the- Yeah … what are you seeing in job descriptions?

Katie: I think the thing is [00:11:50] that I have had more time to consult with clients a lot. And it now has become the norm, if you like. When I get a job description through and then, we [00:12:00] have naturally have our briefing call.

Mike: Yeah.

Katie: I tend to say to them, there’s an element of expectation from our side that they have looked at that gap [00:12:10] that they’ve now got. And if it is a replacement, do they need a like for like replacement?

Katie: Can they move some of the capability to more junior [00:12:20] people and enhance their jobs? Does it need to be that same level? Is that job role and that those key responsibilities fit for the business [00:12:30] now and going forward rather than, it’s so easy to say, “All right,” or, panic, “I need to backfill that person like for and actually it’s around taking the time to understand [00:12:40] actually how’s the business changed since that person’s been there and where is it going to?

Katie: And then what I’ve seen is that they get given the chance to put job [00:12:50] description together and I look at it and think, okay, this is a unicorn moment. You’re looking for a unicorn. And if that was the situation, they wouldn’t [00:13:00] be recruiting in the first place because no one would leave that perfect job. Yeah. I find myself now on briefing calls saying to clients, “Okay, without looking at the job [00:13:10] description, I want you to tell me the key the top three, maximum four things-” that are nonnegotiable from a [00:13:20] technical standpoint and a softer skill set standpoint, and then I want you to tell me the key focuses for this person to make them successful in the job [00:13:30] role.”

Katie: And actually what I’m finding is, a lot of their nonnegotiables don’t even exist in the job description. So it’s A- and I think it’s more the, the biggest [00:13:40] shift across Europe and the UK I’ve found is that we are gen- genuinely more consultants rather than [00:13:50] recruiters- Yeah because we are consulting with the businesses every step of the way.

Katie: And I don’t know if that’s the same about about th- the US. I know that, [00:14:00] one of the other things that comes up all the time is around salaries, and- Yeah …I know I’ve touched on it before about the discrepancy in salaries versus experience, and that’s something that we [00:14:10] do challenge clients on quite a lot.

Katie: And I know again the US is quite a headline is around the salary isn’t it?

Mike: There’s a headline that i think [00:14:20] also treasury, even though it’s a specialist area sometimes has to fit within these quite strict salary bands. That we can only pay this to this. [00:14:30] And I found myself not walking away from, clients but saying, “I can’t help you,” and they’re like- Yeah why?”

Mike: I [00:14:40] said, ‘ Because what you want, the unicorn, those top three things. This is this money, this is this money, and this is this money.’ They’re like, “All right.” And I said, “I can get you that [00:14:50] person in South Carolina.” And they went, no, we want them in the office in New York three days a week.” Went, “Okay, the salary’s this then.”

Mike: And they’re like, we don’t wanna pay that” [00:15:00] or y- “It doesn’t fit in our salary band.” I said, “Okay, so we’ll senior treasury analyst. I could give you a treasury analyst that could do this, or senior treasury manager. We can get your treasury manager to do this, or [00:15:10] treasurer, even in the senior levels.”

Mike: I said, “But you’ve got to know”, and I talked to someone just the other day about this and I was … I don’t– We don’t recruit in California. Don’t recruit on the West [00:15:20] Coast. We love you West coast guys and, doing Vegas AFP shortly, but salaries are Markedly higher in the West Coast of the US [00:15:30] than even New York and things because the cost of living is so much higher

Katie: Yeah

Mike: I’ll come back into that about the coffee example. But the fact is when I was recruiting for a [00:15:40] client over in LA and they said if we had the person based here in LA what’s the number?” And I went, “350.” They went, “Oh [00:15:50] that, that wasn’t in our budget” I went, “That’s what you want to pay for that treasurer, I can get you one of those at $350 maybe even $400.”

Mike: They were like, “Oh okay crumbs actually no, [00:16:00] we were actually thinking about paying around $300.” And I went, “Okay For that I can get you someone in these locations may be Probably over in Texas,” and we ended [00:16:10] up recruiting someone actually working on a remote basis but for $250. But that wasn’t…

Mike: Remote was the last thing and actually we don’t do remote as generally [00:16:20] working, but that was just because it evolved and they said, we will consider people or people in Texas or people in these locations,’ and things like that and coming back to this [00:16:30] conversations I think it’s a different It’s a different conversation Because you can’t transfer US market, UK market and Europe.

Mike: [00:16:40] They are so different if you like. Yeah. The treasury manager i-, and the t- the title can be quite misleading because I did this in one of the, again, one of the articles videos. If you [00:16:50] take a cup of Starbucks coffee, other coffees are available, other chains are there. But you take a large latte from the local store here in the UK, [00:17:00] and it contains one type of milk, couple of shots.

Mike: And I take that and I empty out as I get w- on the plane or I drink all the coffee. And then I… and that costs me [00:17:10] £4 say. And then I get off the plane in New York and I walk in and I said, “Fill that exact same cup.” And they go, “That’s 15 bucks please.” And I’m like, “What? No it’s not [00:17:20] magical coffee.

Mike: There are no magic beans with it.” And they’re like no. This is how much it costs here with our taxes and everything else.” And you go, okay, you’re America now ’cause that’s how much it costs. But [00:17:30] then your salary might be that much higher. That’s the key thing. Like a, a, a treasury analyst in– How much would a treasury analyst get in the UK?

Mike: Just basic treasury analysts, say three years [00:17:40] experience just off top of your head.

Katie: Okay, so that’s probably… i’m recruiting one now. It’s probably about 45/50.

Mike: Right. Yeah. So that’s it. Yeah. So you’re looking at that. I’m recruiting a… [00:17:50] in fact just recent recruited a senior treasury analyst in New York $125,000. Yeah. And then people are like, “Wow, that’s…” I said, “No, ’cause it, that’s how much it’s gonna cost to live in New [00:18:00] York.”

Mike: I said, “In actual fact if that role was in Texas, that role might be 80 to $90,000 because the cost of living is that much lower.” And they’re like, “Oh, [00:18:10] okay. All right.” I said, “It depends.” The answer is- Yeah … how mu- how much y- do you need to pay for that person? It depends thing.

Katie: And I think one of the questions that comes [00:18:20] through on phone calls and on emails to us is what should I be earning?

Katie: As a treasury manager in London or in [00:18:30] Switzerland. And that all comes up to, y- when we say to clients, have you benchmarked this, this salary? And not just benchmarking it with job ads and things [00:18:40] like that, but have you actually got complete genuine data to check?

Katie: And I think that’s when we start having the conversations obviously about our salary survey. They’re genu- [00:18:50] genuinely quite shocked at the difference between, And I know that we’re coming into our next salary survey. And I guess, what’s the biggest thing that you’ll…

Katie: y- you [00:19:00] think will change or,

Katie: no. the first thing- … will be the biggest surprise?

Mike: the first thing I’ve gotta be careful about, I know I get my opinions and everything else, and I’m… n- I feel myself [00:19:10] gently climbing the stairs to get onto my big soapbox. I can feel it now because I get so wound up.

Mike: I see these other salary [00:19:20] survey, treasury salary survey snapshots which are just baloney, when I just see them. And it just says a tr- treasurer in London earns, [00:19:30] from our rivals, and this drives me mad and I’m sorry. It then says £160,000 to £360,000.

Mike: Shut your face. That is just I’m like, that is not a [00:19:40] survey. That’s just a finger in the air. That’s what I’ve had to do in the past. That is why I created, and I’m passionate, so passionate about, we’ve got 1,600 people that do the salary survey now globally, [00:19:50] and it’s grown massively in recent years over in the US and we’ve got a really good snapshot there.

Mike: I would say the AFP, they do the granddaddy of all salary [00:20:00] surveys, and I’ve said to them, “That is the bible of it,” ’cause it breaks it down and stuff. But that’s a big part. They’ve got a research team of, three or four people doing it. This is just us, us doing it. We do it. We [00:20:10] benchmark it, and we do it th- the mo-, accurately, but we don’t have that bandwidth of people helping us.

Mike: but we then do it so you can get a really accurate snapshot from Treasury [00:20:20] Analyst to Global Treasurer across the US, across UK, and across Europe. And there are discrepancies there as well. We get a lot of the time, “Oh, could you do a [00:20:30] Swiss survey?” We used to do one. We can’t because we don’t have the bandwidth.

Mike: There’s, the team of four of us sort of thing, so we, we don’t have the time.

Mike: But the key thing I would say is [00:20:40] think that Post COVID, as you say there was that hybrid thing and we were asking more about the questions about how many days a week. But I think that’s settled in different places.

Mike: Yeah. [00:20:50] Just from you, I’ll talk about the US but what’s general hybrid for UK? What’s general hybrid working for U- for Europe? What would you say? Just

Katie: generally. Europe tends to be maximum three days [00:21:00] a week in the office.

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Katie: More of the norm seems to be two days a week. Yep. UK, the average is about three days in the office.

Katie: Sometimes four maximum. But that tends to be the general rule.

Mike: Rule. And the [00:21:10] US, I think I, what I’ve noticed is it depends on where you live. It depends on where your office is. In New York it’s probably [00:21:20] more, it’s closer to three to four days a week in office. If you’re in Texas it’s probably three days a week in office. I’m just [00:21:30] trying to think of some of the other places I’ve recruited recently.

Mike: Chicago, there’s a good one. I’m recruiting currently a senior treasury analyst role there. Maybe, goes toward treasury manager. [00:21:40] Again, the treasurer there has said, “Look, three days a week in office.” . We’re just establishing a new office.

Mike: We’ll probably want to be in together two or three days a week.

Mike: But actually after that, it’ll [00:21:50] probably just settle down to two days a week because we wanna spend some time together, do some work together. But actually we might have some weeks where we’re 100% remote.” Yeah. But i- that’s not a, [00:22:00] it’s not a remote job. If we were to go, “Oh, it’s a remote job,” we don’t really get those remote jobs.

Mike: That’s one of the key things. We do occasionally.

Mike: I was gonna say we’re going to do the results. So anyone [00:22:10] listening, go to www.treasurysalary.com , take part in the salary survey. Go on our website, update your information if there.

Mike: You’ll be getting emails look out for them stuff.

Mike: But what would [00:22:20] surprise you when we start to get those results, as we will do.

Mike: We’re recording this beginning of September, so in a month and a half or so the results will be out. [00:22:30] What would surprise you would you say?

Katie: I think if what will surprise me is if salaries have slowed and stagnated a little bit. It would be interesting to [00:22:40] see the changes in terms of bonus levels ’cause we’re seeing a lot more changes in bonus across UK, I think- Yeah at different levels.

Katie: And [00:22:50] I’m always interested in how much emphasis they put on the the more kind of cultural kind of side of things. In terms of, why would they leave and it’s like manager or [00:23:00] progression or stuff like that. Yeah. I’d be surprised if that doesn’t

Katie: If that isn’t … if that kind of slows as well.

Katie: We’ve been talking to the listeners about various different locations, and I’m sure a lot of [00:23:10] people have seen your face the first half of this year. Yeah. Sorry. ‘Cause you’ve been globe, globetrotting. Yep. And I think you’re going into your second wave of globetrot- Yes trotting again. I think it would be good for [00:23:20] listeners to understand why you’re doing all of these events, w- what’s the reason behind it? Yeah. Is it worth it?

Mike: Yeah.

Katie: Why?

Mike: Totally is. First half of this [00:23:30] year was th- there’s that book or whatever where you just say yes.

Mike: Just so that you gotta keep on trying. B- and that was my probably, j- too many times I said yes [00:23:40] pre-summer. Where I was between one of the trips, or I was on one trip, I knew I had another one in two, three weeks time, and then I got invited to speak at the ACT UK Treasurer’s Conference [00:23:50] literally two days after I got off a plane.

Mike: But the fact is if I’m gonna be given an opportunity to be in a room with another 1,000 treasury professionals, [00:24:00] shut up and say yes. That’s your job. Th- that’s where I’ve invested in it because I’m investing in that face-to-face time because I think, I see a lot of [00:24:10] our rivals, LinkedIn keyboard warriors.

Mike: I do a lot on LinkedIn, but I’m doing it because, with the newsletter, with the videos I’m gonna shoot. Today’s one I’m [00:24:20] trying to give people experience of what I’ve heard from other treasury professionals when I’ve been in a room with them, and I can actually say that. So two weeks time we’re going fr-…

Mike: [00:24:30] I’m doing Barcelona, Luxembourg Treasury 360, Chicago, New York, back, then London, then, you know- Vegas … then Amsterdam,

Katie: and then… Have I missed one? I can’t remember. But yeah,

Mike: just- Vegas And Vegas, yeah. I think it’s Vegas.

Mike: Yep [00:24:40] Something I didn’t know. But, shut up and get on the plane. It’s like the fact is that’s my job to look over the top of my coffee, maybe something stronger hopefully in [00:24:50] Vegas and- talking to, sitting with an analyst and asking what they want in their treasury career.

Mike: And either sitting around a table with say [00:25:00] 10 Treasury, guys around our roundtable. So we’re just in the midst of… so we’ve recently relaunched. we’ve got our Chicago event happening on [00:25:10] 8th of October, and just did a mail shot the past couple of days, and it’s blooming. It’s going really well.

Mike: New York did a– reached out to a load of people yesterday again, come to our [00:25:20] roundtables. We had 36 at our roundtables in March in New York, aiming to get around that number again. But then we’ve also got Ask the Treasurer, because I noticed a lot of badges were left at the end of the [00:25:30] evening and I thought and again, that’s gonna be today’s new video, so people should sign up to my weekly video.

Mike: But very shortly, I saw someone moaning on [00:25:40] LinkedIn that no one had showed up to one of their events, and they were horrible about people, “Oh these people came to our event last time.” All these people signed up no one showed up. [00:25:50] I’m like and you’re blaming them? So maybe your thing was like a sales fest or something like that so they’re thinking I’m not going to the next one.

Mike: People come to ours and more people [00:26:00] come the next time. They bring their colleagues, they bring things like that.

Katie: And I think we’ve, so just ’cause- Go on … I think for some listeners they might not realize that actually The Treasury Career Corner live events have [00:26:10] definitely shifted over the last couple of y-, well over the last year even.

Katie: Because now we’ve taken onboard feedback and, some people won’t know about the round [00:26:20] tables what that is. Some people

Mike: won’t

Katie: ask- Yeah … know about the Ask the Treasurer but we’ve in order to get those people to come back again you know we’re constantly looking for feedback and trying to make it, it [00:26:30] better and more valuable for them to take time out of the office.

Katie: Yeah … which is why now we’ve got those two extra events within the bigger event. And

Mike: We know it’s an investment in [00:26:40] time and that’s why we respect the people that come along. So our Treasury Career Corner Live Events are panel sessions.

Mike: 6:00 registration, 6:30 sit down, I interview three treasurers. [00:26:50] So it’s amazing for you as a, an attendee. You get to hear career stories from these guys, you get to learn from them the do’s and don’ts for your career. You might be thinking about [00:27:00] making a move. You hear someone on stage go, “I made that move it was a mistake.”

Mike: You’re thinking hang on there may be a– Or getting this great advice. If you’re in the US by coming to our events you get CTP t- [00:27:10] CTP credits. Easy for me to say. One of the key things is people then… And then we do networking drinks, so you get to do this and actually I’m gonna dive in and keep going because basically [00:27:20] then with Brian my business coach, we sat down and he said, you need to give more value.

Mike: These guys are making this effort.” So we created the round tables where we have [00:27:30] the treasurers choose the topics then they rotate around thie- themselves. No sponsors involved, Chatham House Rules. Go around the room groups of eight to ten, [00:27:40] they rotate every hour. They talk about their greatest challenges and one person will say, “This is my greatest challenge.”

Mike: The group discusses it gives loads of input. It’s amazing. [00:27:50] Then realized I saw all the badges at the end who wasn’t coming? Analysts, managers, ’cause they’re really, up to their neck in it but they still want the value. So we thought rather than moan about it on [00:28:00] LinkedIn, we said hang on let’s get somebody else and Ask the Treasurer.

Mike: Did it in London. We had Stuart Case from Sky, Tanya From Acrisure. Again at 5:00 we had eight treasury [00:28:10] analysts. I was like oh my God this is a m- But eight, you know given the knowledge. Actually by quarter past we had twenty-eight treasury analysts and managers just sitting talking to them asking, quizzing them [00:28:20] about their careers.

Mike: It was off the charts amazing. We’re doing the same in Chicago, we’re doing the same in New York. but in Chicago we’re just doing Ask The [00:28:30] Treasurer and then the panel, but in New York we’re doing round tables, we’re doing Ask The Treasurer, we’re doing the panel. It’s amazing, and for anyone listening today you should sign up or [00:28:40] get your ass across there.

Mike: And then in November we’re gonna do the same in London with our roundtables. We do it for you guys, we don’t do it for us. It’s not a sales event, it’s about being in a [00:28:50] room with you guys.

Mike: So I was asked just this week someone said, “How come you managed to keep it going for so long?” We’ve had four… over four hundred forty episodes, one a [00:29:00] week for like this.

Mike: We’ve had five hundred plus guests. And the key thing about it, I said, look, every single person on that has a lot of the… has the same job title, they are [00:29:10] called treasurer. And it’s when I’m in Barcelona, I’ll be talking to people and they’re, within, within, an arm’s reach there’ll be ten treasurers, and I say, “All of these people, same title, [00:29:20] different jobs.”

Mike: They go, “What? Really?” I went, yeah, no. ‘Cause one is debt laden, one is cash rich, one is centralized, one is decentralized, one does it this way, one does it that way. One is, [00:29:30] very tech heavy, one isn’t very tech, like oh, okay. And y- and one has a team of eighty, one has a team of ten. You’re like, okay, we’ve got the same job title.

Mike: Yeah it’s all different and things like [00:29:40] that. yeah, th-that’s one of the key things I found with it as well.

Mike: We said right back at the beginning of the show it’s been seven years. Oh, you lucky lady.

Katie: I know.

Mike: And still here.

Katie: [00:29:50] Doesn’t time fly?

Mike: It does. So I’m gonna talk to you, just do some quick fires.

Mike: We were gonna do this at one stage on the podcast, but I always thought putting a treasurer out that on the spot, [00:30:00] they didn’t really like it, so we don’t do it. But I can do it to you, it’s fine. Sure. And then you give your own back. So,-

Mike: Yep I’m going to give you some… No, I’m not gonna give you clues. I’m gonna put you on the spot.

Mike: Okay. Client [00:30:10] side, what’s the most frustrating thing? Be careful, we wouldn’t be nice to my clients as well but what should they do or don’t do or whatever?

Katie: I think one thing that they should – stop doing is as I touched on [00:30:20] before is want– is chasing that unicorn. And and then paying less.

Mike: Anythings that, just last couple anything that candidates [00:30:30] that what should they do more of

Katie: I think they need to be continually networking not just when they’re looking for a job. I think they need to build their deeper and broader [00:30:40] treasury skillset. I think when it comes to interviewing and things like that, they need to explain their achievements and focus on that because when you go [00:30:50] into an interview if you’re a treasury analyst the interviewer takes it as, as standard that they’re gonna have certain skillsets, but they want to know what makes them better than the next [00:31:00] person.

Mike: I know. Yeah. And clients, what should they do more of?

Katie: I think the biggest thing is to realize that the interviews are two way. Yeah … and that they have a job to sell that, that [00:31:10] role and the business to them. Especially because a lot of … the majority of our our candidates aren’t actively looking so they need- to focus on what, [00:31:20] dangling that carrot. And focusing more on the salaries and quicker process. Yep.

Mike: Oh.

Katie: Okay. Go on. what do you think’s changed most in the 24 years that you’ve been [00:31:30] doing recruitment for treasury?

Mike: I was one of the original people that got onto LinkedIn, when I was working at my previous company and they were like, “What’s this LinkedIn thing?” I went, I think social network,” [00:31:40] blah, blah, blah. Now, people can do lots of things themselves. I think that links into the fact that not every treasury professional necessarily– [00:31:50] They will be on LinkedIn a lot of the time, but they don’t…

Mike: Then I was talking to someone just this week, they haven’t updated their LinkedIn in three years. They’ve moved a job by now, and I’m like, “Oh [00:32:00] wow, okay.” And so yeah, so LinkedIn, that’s a, a key thing. I think interviewing like this, we are doing this over Zoom. There’s Teams, there’s all the other [00:32:10] platforms.

Mike: I think that people need to think more about how they present themselves a little bit more and be… before this, you and I rehearsed. Then do that if you’re going for a job or you do this, [00:32:20] it, it doesn’t take long to actually think it through. You’ve got tools you can use like ChatGPT, AI, and things that can help you make yourself better.

Mike: But the flip side of [00:32:30] that, what has– th- what’s changed, but what hasn’t changed? Yeah. I think actually people and I think, maybe, I dunno, maybe it has changed. It used to be one [00:32:40] stage in the earlier days and throughout I was seeing people every week and I got really quite tired of it.

Mike: Every Thursday I was in London. I felt I was in London, my office, but every Thursday I was [00:32:50] meeting people all day, and then I just wanted to stop doing it. I was so exhausted and, the team had said, “Oh, you are there every Thursday” and oh, having a bit of a jolly and seeing clients.

Mike: And actually, yeah, I was a bit… I [00:33:00] said.. And they, then they said, “Actually, we looked at the results you’ve got from that.” And I was like, “Oh yeah.” And they said, “It’s added six figures to the bottom line.” I was like, “Why?” And they went, “‘Cause of all the networking you do And [00:33:10] that’s why we’ve condensed that, if you like, through our events and things like that.

Mike: So how I say that to you as treasury professionals listening, get out of your [00:33:20] corner office, come to our event, go to an industry event. Get off your butt and actually invest in yourselves. That’s what I say all the time [00:33:30] is like coming to our event, we provide the platform, you’ve got to walk in that door.

Mike: I’ve already had someone say, “Oh, I can’t do New York. Yeah, sorry.” And I thought [00:33:40] they’re actively in the job search. Now it’s six, seven weeks away. Surely, they could invest in that, oh no, I can’t do that. Busy that evening. [00:33:50] seven weeks away and you’re desperate in the job search?

Mike: Yeah, you’re not that desperate then. So yeah.

Katie: Would you say that’s the same advice in terms of networking that [00:34:00] you would have given somebody 20 years ago? Has that changed, that advice?

Mike: The fact is you can never move a relationship forward by sending a LinkedIn [00:34:10] email or an email. You can only move a relationship forward by direct contact. Now that can be through the phone. Maybe it can be through Zoom, or Teams. [00:34:20] But nothing better than sitting with someone and, I’ve got it coming up next Thursday I’m in town.

Mike: Then two week later I’m Barcelona, that’s like networking on [00:34:30] steroids. The same with our events, the same with Luxembourg, the same with our events. We’re gonna have 100 people at New York. We’re gonna have [00:34:40] 70 at Chicago. I, … I total it up sometimes and say, “I’m in a room with over 1,000 treasury professionals over the…”

Mike: I think the investment in [00:34:50] that. Treasury is still a networking business, and I think that’s one of the key bits.

Katie: And what are candidates still doing wrong and what are clients still doing wrong would you say?

Mike: [00:35:00] Okay. We’ll do each. What– Candidates, what are they still getting wrong?

Katie: Yeah

Mike: Your presentation stinks. It’s like if you were presenting to your boss [00:35:10] or the board, or to other team members, you would do a nice Slide Deck PowerPoint… might use other tools to make it look really good.

Mike: Brilliant. You look lovely. [00:35:20] Then you send us your resume and it has spelling errors. You’re like, “What the heck?” We look at your LinkedIn profile. It doesn’t have a photo on it. it’s [00:35:30] free guys. have a quick two minute look on a Friday coffee when you’re listening to this.

Mike: Just have a quick look at your LinkedIn. When was the last time you updated it? Took [00:35:40] 60 seconds just to add a line.

Mike: One of the key things I’m saying is, I even saw it this week, a really good candidate sent me their… Said, “I would love to chat to you.” And it said, “I’m [00:35:50] strategic leader,” and blah blah blah blah blah. And then the rest of showed me nothing. Actually showed me it was just bland. And I was like if you are strategic, and I’m gonna be talking to them.

Mike: I [00:36:00] said, “Where did you save money? Where did you move the needle for your company last year?”

Katie: And so I suppose if I’m a treasury professional listening to this now- [00:36:10] and I think I might be looking at my move in next six months, what would be your advice for me?

Mike: Email, [00:36:20] call, drop a line, come and meet me or you at one of the conferences.

Mike: Have a sit down for a coffee.

Mike: Don’t wait until you need to [00:36:30] leave.

Mike: Be active. I talked to a treasurer, in fact, talked to him end of last week, and he was doing the same. He was saying like I’m all right at the moment, but [00:36:40] I think,” looking into a crystal ball started to do. Said, “What should I do?” I said, “Invest in yourself now.” Go out with your bankers.

Mike: Get those relationships. Th- maybe you’re not gonna do some debt [00:36:50] capital raising, maybe you’not going to do that, but actually warming those relationships. Put yourself out. Say, yeah, I’ll be on a panel, not just for me, for them at a session. Volunteer with your local [00:37:00] association.

Mike: And I called him, and I actually spoke to him yesterday. I said, “I thought about this. You need to b- be on my podcast.” He was like, “Oh yeah. Actually, that’s a good idea.” I was like, “Yeah, because that, [00:37:10] then it’s y- your walking talking resume CV” to this US chap.

Mike: And he said, “Yeah, no, I did really enjoy that.” I said, “All right.” I went, “I’d love to have you on.” But it was just because we’ve known each other [00:37:20] for ages and things like that. So invest in yourself now. Secondly, benchmark your salary. It’s, we run it every six months. It’s free, costs you [00:37:30] nothing.

Mike: It’s confidential. You go on there when you go for your pay review later this year, and someone says, what’s leading you to believe that you’re 15% under the market or 20%?” I [00:37:40] said, “Here’s my survey.” This is where we benchmarked it. Don’t go in with it first of all, but go in with the evidence and stuff like that.

Mike: So I think you have all that, and then that’ll naturally [00:37:50] lead into, again, the phone calls. You’ll start to get phone calls. You’ll start to get people. Flipping around if you’re a treasurer, to you, and you’re thinking [00:38:00] about you’re gonna recruit someone what should you be doing if you’re thinking about refreshing the team and things like that, Katie, and you’re, th- someone’s gonna recruit?

Mike: What should they be doing?

Katie: I think if I put my HR [00:38:10] head on first and foremost- Oh, ouch … you need to you need to look at the job and that gap. See whether you need to replace it like for What’s shifted? What could be added on? [00:38:20] And when you’ve got that, you nee- really do need to be clear about what this person coming in needs to accomplish.

Katie: What is it in terms of the [00:38:30] nonnegotiable technical and softer skill set that’s really needed. So separating- Yeah … that unicorn. And then I, the salary plays a big piece. Make sure you [00:38:40] benchmark the salary properly. Tested sort of location and what hybrid working you’re offering versus what the, the market is saying you need to [00:38:50] offer.

Katie: Yep. And the biggest thing especially if you’re recruiting through us as I said earlier the majority of our candidates aren’t actively on the markets. They’re not actively [00:39:00] applying for jobs on LinkedIn or through company websites. So actually, have a real think and be prepared to, why should this good person who’s not unhappy in their role [00:39:10] move to your role? Yeah. And really think about that that kind of USP. And then make the process quick. You know these people- Yeah … these good people will [00:39:20] go. And you know they’re judging you and your business through that candidate experience.

Katie: So the timely feedback is [00:39:30] critical throughout, and you’ve got to move it within pace because that in itself builds a perception for the candidate on- yeah … what it’s gonna be like to work in that company. … And [00:39:40] I think a lot of clients forget that.

Mike: We’re recording this in September. So we’ve got the lead up to Christmas. To the next looking in the crystal ball three to six months what’s the [00:39:50] thing that you’re going to be watching out most closely between now and then that you think’s gonna be happening looking in yours?

Katie: I think candidate availability is one thing.

Katie: I [00:40:00] think the salary expectations, what’s gonna come out with the salary survey. And I guess we have got that window between now and when inevitably the [00:40:10] children break up for Christmas and how those processes go and how the hiring confidence is with- within clients.

Mike: Yeah.

Katie: And [00:40:20] right back at you

Mike: Geopolitics, Katie. I know . It’s not a word I thought you would… you thought you’d hear from me. I think-

Katie: Not one I use every day.

Mike: No. But joking aside, what I’ve heard from… [00:40:30] i’m talking to a lot of US clients, UK, Europe, right the way across really, Western economies, let’s call it that.

Mike: We’ve had some very unsettled years past few years. I’m not a political person, that’s not my [00:40:40] thing. I’m not on a soapbox for that at all. What treasurers and treasury professionals like is stability. They want stability. That helps them with their jobs. Predictability so they can manage risk and all [00:40:50] that stuff.

Mike: What I am starting to see is… L- just give you a snapshot. Actually I’ve closed it down but my outlook this [00:41:00] afternoon is full. What I mean is I’ve got a call at two o’clock from a client who wants to. Recruit. At [00:41:10] three o’clock I’ve got someone who wants to be a sponsor of our events because they want to be in the room with the treasurers.

Mike: Then a call with another client at four o’clock to talk about [00:41:20] a new briefing. Five– 4:30 I’ve got another one, another role. If you’re in New York come to me. I’ve got one, two treasury analyst, [00:41:30] one senior treasury analyst role. I’ve got another vacancy coming up in Chicago, and then I’ve got a couple of feedbacks about some other roles we’re recruiting in Chicago.

Mike: So the U.S. [00:41:40] is coming back. You and I know we’ve already got calls next week booked for some UK searches.

Katie: Yeah.

Mike: That’s coming back. I know that Europe-

Katie: Europe is slowly-

Katie: But surely

Mike: I’m out in Barcelona , by the time someone [00:41:50] listens to this it will be only a week away before I’ll be getting on the plane, and actually we’re filling up with coffees and drinks and stuff like that where I’m gonna sit down with these treasurers. And I’ll talk to them about them and their [00:42:00] treasury careers, I’ll talk about them as recruite- recruiting, and also talk to them about the podcast as well.

Mike: it’s been amazing. Any final words from you and then I’ll give my [00:42:10] final sign off

Katie: No, just keep listening and and look out for any jobs that come onto our website. And always- we’re always here for a chat if you need [00:42:20] any advice.

Mike: All I would say is we’re … I think you and I, we’re still l- I’m still learning, and it’s been a number of years- Yeah

Mike: been doing this. We will do more celebrations [00:42:30] I’m sure, but, from 24 years coming up in as the treasury recruitment company, 30 years as a treasury recruiter, then it’d be nice around the same [00:42:40] date actually, that’s when we published it, eight years of Treasury Career Corner Podcast, which is actually…

Mike: Actually, I’m gonna add something to that. I’m just grateful to you if you listen to it like you are doing today. Thank you [00:42:50] very much. Let me know you listened to it. Please, we don’t get the feedback from Apple or Spotify and other platforms, so let me know you’re interested. If there are people that you [00:43:00] think, and you’re listening and you are a treasurer, you’d like to be on the show, let me know.

Mike: That’s always the hardest bit, to get guests and things like that. So it’s… I thought we’d do 10 episodes. [00:43:10] We done 440 plus. It’s then led to everything else. We’ve got some massive news about a joint event we’re doing in the US [00:43:20] next year in May, that we’ll- we’re gonna start to announce that in next week or the week after, so look out for that.

Mike: But finally we’ll put some photos [00:43:30] of this. Seven years of working with me, obviously an utter priv- Thanks Beth Tola …

Katie: an ut-

Mike: utter, utter privilege for you, Katie.

Katie: Yes,

Mike: it has

Katie: been.

Mike: every [00:43:40] day is a school day. Just learning. Just thank you very much for putting up with me and- No,

Katie: thank you- Yeah

Katie: for putting up with

Mike: me. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you very much.

Katie: Thank you.