How Decentralized Growth and Centralized Treasury Drive Global Success Across 21 Countries

Mike Richards, CEO, The Treasury Recruitment Company: Welcome to this week’s Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week, I’ll talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next.

Mike Richards: Let’s get on with the show.

Mike Richards: In this week’s show, delighted to be joined by Declan Doorly, the Head of Group Treasury at DCC PLC. Headquartered in Dublin, DCC PLC is a leading international sales, marketing and support services group actually listed on the London Stock Exchange and part of the FTSE 100. They provide solutions the world needs across three transformative sectors, energy, healthcare and technology, where they acquire, improve and grow diverse businesses.

Mike Richards: Now I’ll get Declan to explain that a little bit later, but the businesses are amazing. So over 21 countries, four continents, 16, 600 employees. to create long term value for that is their aim for shareholders, customers, society, the planet. That’s enough of that. I’m going to go back to how Declan first started in finance and then into treasury and everything else.

Mike Richards: Declan, over to you, sir.

Declan Doorly, Head of Group Treasury at DCC PLC: Thanks, Mike. And thanks for the invitation to join your show. It’s fantastic to be here. Yeah. And thanks for the introduction on DCC as well. So yes, we’ve been around as a listed company for 30 years. We’ve had a very Huge success in that time. The profit growth has been 40, 14 percent over that time period.

Declan Doorly: Recash flow conversion is at 99 percent over that 30 years. So it’s a real focus on cash generation, buying cash generative businesses, and really delivering for our shareholders, adding value. You’re right. We do operate in energy, healthcare, and technology. Our energy business is 74 percent of our profits.

Declan Doorly: So that’s a real focus for us from a strategic point of view. And one of the things about the DCC business model that may not be the same as a lot of the businesses you talk to, we operate a decentralized devolved model. When we buy businesses, we encourage the team that we bought in with the business.

Declan Doorly: To remain and we incentivize them to grow it and really from a central perspective, we provide strategic direction. We also manage all capital allocation from the center and then from a treasury perspective. Clearly, we manage the cash and the future funding needs of the business. So that gives maybe a quick overview of what DCC does and what it’s like.

Mike Richards: And just before we move, we’ll go back to the beginning of your career in a minute, but actually I’ll jump in there because I know when we had our original briefing call, just going to that decentralised, centralised model, a lot of companies, when they go and buy someone, they go in and strip out all the staff and break, centralise it.

Mike Richards: Why is it so different with you guys?

Declan Doorly: It’s a model that has worked really well and it’s been going for 50 years as a company in total, right? So it, we believe that having the local. People in the business drives those businesses to be stronger, right? So that’s from a couple of perspectives. One, they’re closer to the customers.

Declan Doorly: That’s clearly a good thing. And also then to drive local growth, we would take, we might take a position in a sector in a particular country, right? And we will then encourage and incentivize the local management team to build that business. For example, when we bought our first fuel distribution business in the UK, long time ago, it was a small business, but now it’s.

Declan Doorly: The leading fuel distributor in the UK. It compounds, it grows, and you encourage the local teams to do that. I think to do that from a local head office based in Dublin would be much more challenging. To have that local expertise, the entrepreneurship that the local businesses have, and to maintain that over time is part DCC successful.

Mike Richards: And then you, but you have a centralized treasury, centralized finance, or how do you run it then?

Declan Doorly: Yeah, sorry. That’s a great question. Each business will have their own finance function and back office, let’s call it. So we will have, for example, we might have three or four businesses across the UK. We might have.

Declan Doorly: CERTAS, FLOGAS, and they are all separately managed and they will all have their own finance teams. Now, the exception is from a treasury perspective, we then bring in all the cash into the center. So cash is king and we, part of the job in treasury as to risk manage, obviously protect the assets of the firm, of the group, and also to manage liquidity around the group and to allocate capital.

Declan Doorly: As the group sees fit, as we decide, so the, so it’s a, yeah, so it’s a devolved structure, but the controls are really tight around what we do with our cash. And that is, so from a head office perspective, we have a treasury function. We have the likes of internal audits. We have divisional management teams, et cetera.

Declan Doorly: It’s pretty light at head office level. The, as we say, the work is really done and the customer, closer to the customers in the local jurisdictions.

Mike Richards: Cool. And so let’s just go back for a moment. You qualified as an accountant originally way a few years ago, never way back when, but talk us through your career and how, how it’s evolved.

Declan Doorly: Yeah. So it’s, I suppose I was thinking about this. Earlier in the last couple of days, it really goes back to the upbringings. I became a child accountant, as you say, a long time ago. It was really important to, when I was growing up, my, my parents were quite strong on getting good education and then having a professional qualification behind you.

Declan Doorly: You got to bear in mind that these, they grew up in the mid. Mid fifties was when they started their work career. So they’ve seen all these economic cycles and they believe that there’s a resilient income from having a professional qualification. And that informed my decisions of initially becoming. So after doing a commerce degree, ended up in KPMG for a number of years in their financial services side.

Declan Doorly: And that was a huge experience. It was massive. The exposure you get to a number of different types of businesses and just the caliber of people as well. Well, it was excellent. I had a following maybe 10 years in financial services between stockbroking company and the Irish stock exchange. And then one of the biggest, they were mostly finance roles that also risk management played a big part in what I did in the stockbroking company.

Declan Doorly: I set up a risk and compliance function. So from scratch, that was a really interesting time. That was during the, what we had in Ireland during the Celtic tiger years. I don’t know if you remember those, but it was a. Super time and really good work. There was a lot of regulatory change coming in at the time as well between Mifid and many others.

Declan Doorly: So that was a really good time and quite a broad experience.

Mike Richards: Just for me, actually, I obviously I’ve been a recruiter 25 years in treasury. So, uh, yeah, I was recruiting during that time all the way through. And it was a boom time just for our overseas listeners. And maybe some explain what the Celtic tiger means and what that sort of period of boom was.

Declan Doorly: Yeah, it’s, I’m trying to figure out the easiest way to explain what was, uh, it was a time of huge economic growth.

Mike Richards: Yes.

Declan Doorly: It was a time where the, there was a, essentially a very big boom, right? And it was driven by probably lending without having controls, some controls, but maybe not being followed to the same extent.

Declan Doorly: Right. So you ended up. With just a significant bubble and a valuation bubble, actually, it all came down and crashed in with, I think Lehman was the first bank to really suffer and then it rippled in, but in rippled around the world and Ireland, we had a particular love of property investments, I think.

Declan Doorly: And our banks fully supported that as well. And when the valuations really started to suffer, it ended up, unfortunately, with a lot of people really with kind of liabilities that they just couldn’t meet. There was a period of recovery then after that, which was really difficult for people at a personal level.

Declan Doorly: And after that, a lot of rules did change, for example, leverage rules. And yeah, look, there was a lot of learning for, particularly for regulators and for individuals, I hope from that, because it was pretty serious stuff.

Mike Richards: And then it was at that time, then you joined Circle K or Topaz Energy, you explained who they were and stuff.

Declan Doorly: Yes. Topaz. We were ultimately bought by Circle K. Topaz were the biggest forecourt and fuel importer in Ireland. So we had wholesale, commercial and retail and forecourt operations. So it was quite a large, it is a very large operation in Dublin. And one of the things that attracted me to that was after spending maybe 10, 12 years in financial services, actually.

Declan Doorly: Being able to see the product that you’re, the business you work for sells. That was something that was quite important. So that tangibleness of being able to go out onto street and see whether it’s one of your trucks or it’s a forecourt, and that was really important to me. They wanted somebody to come in to set up.

Declan Doorly: A new risk management function. And that’s what I did. So it was reporting to the CEO and to the board, the chairman of the board. And it was a really great insight. So I, that, that role allowed me access and visibility across the entire operation from health and safety, particularly, and then into financial risk.

Declan Doorly: So it covered quite a broad spectrum that gave me access to nearly all areas in the business. I think when I look back at that role, one of the. Best experiences I had is I managed a project of a cultural change program, which was safety led, and that was one that actually had a strong impact on reducing injuries at the workplace.

Declan Doorly: That’s a real personal experience. Benefit to myself and to others, obviously as well. And so then during that role, I, a position in finance became available and I stuck my hand up for it and went for it and I got us, and that was probably one of the more defining decisions in my career where, you know, so I moved into that finance role and ultimately became the head of finance in, in Topaz and we, and then in that time we, we bought the SO assets in Ireland, which is a really great deal.

Declan Doorly: And then we sold the business to Circle K. Yeah, we’re a Canadian international fuels group and convenience food stores and a very strong operators. And then after that, I, I mean, DCC was a company that I was always interested in and I got the opportunity to join them. Interestingly, when I was working in the stockbroking company, the, one of the companies that was performing that I was.

Declan Doorly: Following and also had bought a few shares in very small was DCC back in, say, 2005 when I joined Topaz going, maybe this would be a stepping stone into DCC. So, that kind of, that worked out really well. DCC had a need at the time to set up a commodity risk management function. So, the commodities that DCC would have been involved in were predominantly like propane or fuels based.

Declan Doorly: And more recently, there’s a lot of electricity and gas as well, and natural gas. Being a devolved structure, one of the things that the, uh, board and the management team wanted a greater size of. In the center was that commodity risk, the pricing risk associated with commodities. So that role was to bring it all into the center and build a centralized function.

Mike Richards: Yeah,

Declan Doorly: exactly. So that was, and that was a great, and again, it gave me great exposure to businesses around, around your particular.

Mike Richards: I remember we had our call way back when, and we talked about the fact that now. Commodity risk management is coming into treasury. You actually started with that. So you started the other way around, which is great.

Mike Richards: Cause then you got into treasury, but then you went through finance and then became into treasury. Was that something that you used as a springboard or is just something that you just knew about?

Declan Doorly: So it’s something I knew about more from the Topaz role where I had the, there was commodity exposure there that needs to be managed.

Declan Doorly: I brought that into, then brought that into the new role. But I think the main thing was. Like, I joined DCC because I knew there were good people there, really good people, and I knew working at a headquarters would put me in a position where if you’re good at what you do, yeah. Then you get noticed and then you, there’s an opportunity to progress.

Declan Doorly: I, so after two years of setting up that commodity function, again, I got the opportunity to be finance director of one of the divisions. So the retail and oil energy division, and that was to me, that was exactly why I joined DCC in the first place, that sort of role, but yes, and that would not have happened had I not taken that commodity risk job.

Mike Richards: And then you did the finance director role before then. A lot of people do treasury all the way through, you then joined treasury more recently sort of things, and then did first credit rating and everything. So what, how did that come about?

Declan Doorly: Yes, I was again, just fortunate. So I joined and took over the treasury function two years ago, after four years of having a finance role, divisional role, the opportunity to guess a group position was really important to me.

Declan Doorly: And again, being in that center, close to the decision makers. It is really important to me. So the, look, the opportunity came up and I was in the right place. And I think I had the capabilities and it was, and that was seen by others. And that’s, I think that’s the key. It’s not, it’s sometimes I think there’s a bit of luck involved in these things, but then you think about what does that mean?

Declan Doorly: It’s really where I was building capabilities over many years. So as. You’re preparing and then an opportunity comes and you’re ready for the opportunity and you can take it because You’ve been expanding your capabilities for many years and having a group role then is was an opportunity that I definitely

Mike Richards: jumped.

Mike Richards: And then you, since you come in, you’ve got a couple of firsts, you’ve done the first credit rating. You did the first public bond. And a lot of, in fact, I was just talking to a client yesterday and a couple of candidates recently said, Oh, I’ve got to get this. I’ve got to have some bond debt capital markets.

Mike Richards: And I’ve said that it’s good to have, but it’s not the be all and end all there’s lots of other stuff. And we’ll come onto that with automation and employees and stuff. But what were those processes like? With the credit and the bond.

Declan Doorly: Yeah. So there again, how fortunate I’ve been to, to take over the responsibilities of treasury while the organization was ready to get their first credit ratings.

Declan Doorly: And DCC has been very active in the private placement market for almost 30 years, right? Funding is not new to the group, but what is new is going to the public market. So the board made a decision. That’s where the direction we should at least have the optionality to be able to go to the public market and buy.

Declan Doorly: So getting credit ratings was the first step in that. That was a, it was a fantastic experience going out to the rating agencies, engaging with them, getting some support to do it as well. And going through the kind of coffee meetings all the way through to formal presentations, formal assessments, I find it’s, again, it’s a way of you’re representing the group and you’re presenting the credit story of the group.

Declan Doorly: And it’s fascinating.

Mike Richards: And if someone else is listening today and they’re going through a similar process or they’re going to go maybe prepare themselves for that, any hints and tips or things that you’ve taken away from it going, do this, don’t do this. And actually this is the way we should have Or what were the learnings, if you like?

Declan Doorly: Yeah, I think first thing is, I think the rating agencies want to work with you. So it’s something that they do help a lot and they’re extremely good at what they do. Their analysts are very sharp and very, and they having some kind of coffee meetings with them is a very useful thing. Also a bit like what I did anyway, you talk to people who have done and gone through this process before, and there are.

Declan Doorly: Also, companies or institutions or banks who will help you put together, whether it’s like your presentations, you can, you definitely need sounding boards for all these things. So I wouldn’t do it. I wouldn’t do it alone. I would do it with some support, whether it’s so absolutely. Even though, as I said, the credit rating agencies are very helpful, very good, but you still, it’s a different, unless you’re used to it, it can be a different language almost.

Declan Doorly: And there’s different emphasis as well. So I think it’s, and it’s a process that you just have to invest time into.

Mike Richards: And then you did that and that then led on to the bond offering and everything else. What was similar process or what was that like?

Declan Doorly: Yeah, the, we got the credit rating, so that would have been November 23.

Declan Doorly: And then six months later, we had Established in the MTN program. So, that, that allowed us to make some issuances, so, our one issuance so far. The whole process there was, again, um, really intense work for your, it’s very high profile, very public by its nature as well, and you need the right partners to work with on that as well.

Declan Doorly: Again, similar to when we talked about the credit rating earlier, it’s about who you pick to work with you as well. So whether that’s legal, you might have an advisor, you might have some banks working with you or whatever. But it’s and the whole process, it’s almost lined up in 2 different zones. You’ve got the documentation process, which is very burdensome and intense.

Declan Doorly: And it depends on your corporate structure, obviously, if you have guarantees, guarantee companies, if you have, not every program is going to be the same. Most definitely not. So you have the legal process at the start and then you enter, once you’re ready to make an issuance, then that becomes a whole different thing where it’s much more about investor relations, talking about the DCC story, talking about our performance, talking about our, the solidity of our balance sheets, how we manage our balance sheets, our low leverage ratios and Doing roadshows.

Declan Doorly: So it’s almost like two different skill sets that you’re bringing to the table. So you, that legal side, then your marketing side as well. So it’s, it was a great process. And again, it’s a. It takes a lot of time, takes a lot of investment, but it’s really interesting.

Mike Richards: Just from, sorry, just to jump in from the beauty parade side, the road show, if you like, and you’re going around there and then you were choosing the banks or choosing your partners and things.

Mike Richards: And actually we get a number of the listeners actually come from that side of the table, if you like, and you’re the. treasurer side of the table. What made them stand out? We, you’ve got three or four different banks, I’m not asking for names, don’t worry. There was one you go, yeah, they just get it, or they just don’t.

Mike Richards: What is it would you say that sort of identifies them? Because again, this is a bit of a tip for those guys out there. This is what you should do. And I know when I’ve done a lot of our, it’s quite interesting. A lot of the guests we’ve had on the show, particularly from the Nordics, they often come from the banking side.

Mike Richards: They’ve been relationship managers, so they know they get to share the pain of treasurers and then they go and become treasurers themselves. And then they know what it’s like that other side for you. What was the sort of, what was the defining factor or actually the flip side don’t do this sort of thing?

Declan Doorly: Yeah. That’s extremely, when you’re going through the. Who do you work with in the first part? That’s extremely difficult because we work with best, the best banks in the world, right? And they’re all extremely capable. How to differentiate, of course, you can differentiate because they have some, they have their own unique ways of working, but that’s extremely difficult.

Declan Doorly: I think from, it’s probably easier to start on the legal side. We want to work again with the best that are out there, particularly for the. Euromarkets and, and that’s what we, that’s what we did. We would have gone and talked to quite a number and we’ve existing relationships with some as well. So that was okay.

Declan Doorly: And then the, on the bank side, yeah, we all know that kind of share of wallet kind of structures that we have to deal with and when we considered it, it’s, there was one of the things that was really impressive was the amount of investment, each of our. Partner banks put into getting in front of us, helping us with this.

Declan Doorly: And ultimately, when we had to narrow down the choice, the choices was very difficult. So we would have used things like league tables, we would have, uh, and some other metrics to try and help us make that decision. But also it’s, we’d like to go back to the market again at some point. And

Declan Doorly: we want to make sure that it’s a fair process for those who’ve made such a commitment to the investment and supporting DC. It’s not, yeah, for the first one, that was a hard one because yeah, you’re testing the water. And also it was a few difficult conversations where people who maybe are banks that could have almost as easily been there and he just, there wasn’t enough room for bandwidth.

Declan Doorly: No, that was tough. But again, everyone was. Very understanding.

Mike Richards: And moving more on to the treasury team that you have, if you want to talk through, I just want to talk through the, so no employee engagement is a big thing for yourself. You mentioned it earlier about the sort of safety projects you’ve done, but also I know when we spoke, you having that relationship with your team and everything else, can you just talk to that for a moment?

Declan Doorly: Yeah, it’s, it’s something real important. So there’s 14 on the team and we have varying lengths of service, let’s say within that, and treasury operates in. Let’s say in DC headquarters and we, in the, almost as a, it’s a unique enough function. It’s quite specialized and we’re, we have a fantastic team and we’ve got some, we’ve got a really nice structure to it now between cash management, bank controls, financial reporting and IT, right?

Declan Doorly: And it works really well. One of the things that always working on is making sure that people feel and are contributing to the best that they can, right? And also that people are enjoying their work, so that they look forward to getting into work every day, and they’re getting something from it, outside of clearly salary, there’s something, and there’s a nice, encouraging, a nice dynamic there.

Declan Doorly: So we’ve, yeah, we do spend quite a bit of time over the last couple of years trying to improve that, and I suppose when I’m thinking about the ways that we do that. What’s important is communication, how we talk to each other, and also keeping the team fully informed about broader, what’s going on in the broader company, in the broader group, providing an ability or providing more space for, say, listening to ideas for people to.

Declan Doorly: We use their voice, which I think is a really important part of it. And then empowering people where we can. And there’s two sides to being empowered, because that also means you’re holding people accountable for completing and doing work to a high standard. And by doing that, I believe anyway, that you’re allowing, you’re giving them the room to grow and develop.

Declan Doorly: And I think that’s really important. And then the other part on engagement, I think. again, which is as important as anything is having a few socials thrown in where you can get together informally. And, and that’s not always easy, right? People’s lives are busy and people have other commitments, but certainly getting a few lunches in during the year, a couple of nights and, and just getting to know each other a bit more rather than just at the desk.

Declan Doorly: Engagements, we’ve more to do on it. And I think you never, you can never, you’ve never, you never hit us. And go, Oh, that’s done because it’s an ongoing thing. So it’s about finding ways of doing it and working together.

Mike Richards: And I know the, the other topic area we, you and I covered before was, uh, much more about automation and AI.

Mike Richards: And we’ve got all the, it’s the hot topic. Isn’t it? It’s every conference. God, if we got paid a pound for every, a Euro for every, that’s it. We’d be rich. We wouldn’t need to work. If we saw enough on. On LinkedIn and everything else going through with you guys. I know automation is a big thing with DCC and the treasury team.

Mike Richards: What are your thoughts?

Declan Doorly: So if I was to take AI specifically. We are, as a group, we are using AI, but it’s more for sales and for sales optimization, let’s say. From a treasury perspective, we have pretty good technology in treasury. We have a treasury management system. We have all the usual things. I would say part of what we’ve been doing over the last couple of years is actually using that technology to its ability, right?

Declan Doorly: So when I, when we talk about AI and we talk about what the future might look like, And use of technology, I get puzzled because I go, are we using our existing technology to its capabilities and we generally aren’t, I think it’s probably common throughout most organizations. Does AI, hopefully, and it’s not there yet anyway, it might make things easier, but for any technology that I’ve seen, we’re not even using it to its capabilities.

Declan Doorly: We’ve been spending a lot of time trying to upscale ourselves and use the technology we have. So that means you’re, yes, you’re investing in it, you’re investing in time, but let’s say it’s a process of improvement, of continuous improvement. I think I’m, I think AI will be massive, but we just don’t know where and when or how.

Declan Doorly: And it could even be the case that it’s a bit like when we use our mobile phone every day, you already have AI. Working away.

Mike Richards: Yeah.

Declan Doorly: And you’re not really that conscious of it. It’s just working away and you just evolve into us and it’s just something that becomes part and parcel of your daily routine. I think from probably from a very specific treasury perspective.

Declan Doorly: It could be very helpful in cash flow forecasting and improving accuracy on that and also on risk management in general, which is an area that if you think of it, we would spend a fair amount of time verifying beneficiaries as an example. Definitely ways that can be improved. So there’ll be plenty of pockets where AI would be really important.

Declan Doorly: But I actually, my main point now is, are we using what we have to help us as well as we can?

Mike Richards: Where do you see it? You partially answered it, but where do you see treasury professionals needing to focus their effort to develop themselves? Is it data and then this clarity and everything else? Maybe when you’re recruiting, what are you looking for from the outside world when you’re looking for candidates and things like that?

Declan Doorly: Yeah, so I suppose. You can, it depends on the role because technology, as you say, and data technology is becoming so much more important. It has been for years, but actually been able to use it. There’s a mix of having treasury knowledge, financial. Banking knowledge and mixing that with technology knowledge and being able to set up your systems and your architecture that allows generation of good data in order to make better decisions.

Declan Doorly: So there is, so I suppose that brings me back to, yeah, to the kind of characteristics that I look for in somebody. We’re hiring a good academic record, just showing that diligence, strong communicators. I think. You got to have a base technical offer as well. So whether it’s a finance or whether it’s as we’ve talked about in technology, that’s.

Declan Doorly: really helpful. And then the curiosity and the aptitude to continue to learn really important. Somebody who brings that energy and drive and is quite willing to take ownership. That’s really important.

Mike Richards: And how do you assess that? You’re interviewing someone. How are you measuring that? I know that I’ll partially answer it.

Mike Richards: I know that some, one of my previous guests, we talked about this a bit on the show. And one of the key things he said. You can see it. I said, what do you mean? And he said, not just face to face, but you can actually see it in their profile. And when you go through their CV, where did you make a difference?

Mike Richards: Where did you actually change things? Where did you, and if someone says they just followed the routine, yeah, they’re not going to make a difference per se. They’re just like, yeah, they’re happy. Yeah. Ticket. Tick the box, turn the handle. What? But then, then they were saying, actually I got bored of this. Oh no.

Mike Richards: But I thought I’d improve it. I was talking to someone yesterday, they’d decided to study Python to help them. ’cause it was like they, it was a personal interest. They said, actually it made my job a lot better. And everybody else around me. And they’re like, yeah, we want you on board. . Yeah. That, yeah.

Declan Doorly: Yeah.

Declan Doorly: Mike, I think that’s it. It’s interesting you. You talk about, you can see us, you can, you got to ask a few of the questions that lead into those discussions. Absolutely. I think when you hear somebody. Who’s able to follow a process as it is, diligently, and at the same time going, Hang on, this could be better.

Declan Doorly: We could do X, Y, and Z. And in an interview asking for an example where you spotted something that you think you could improve and what did you do? How did you go about it? Like, clearly, how you went about it is so important because you’re communicating. You’re bringing your idea, and you’re not just going off, for example, on a solar run and doing it, right, without engaging people.

Declan Doorly: So there’s, yeah, yeah, when you see that, it’s a bit of a sparkle, isn’t it, that people have sometimes. That’s really, it’s great when you have it. We’re lucky enough in the team that we have plenty of that. So it’s great.

Mike Richards: Yeah. I want to be respectful of your time as well. And you’ve given us that. So we’ll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes and everything else.

Mike Richards: But obviously you’ve had some time and we were talking before that you’ve looked through the questions I ask and everything else. And if you look back over your career. If you’re listening today and you’re one of the listeners, bit of advice would you give to the audience that are listening to today’s show?

Declan Doorly: I think it is about partly following your instincts, developing your technical and being ready for opportunities and being able to understand when those opportunities are there and being brave enough to take them. Because you can be thrown out of your comfort zone, but that can be a really good thing for you.

Declan Doorly: For your personal development.

Mike Richards: Amazing. Thank you, sir. And great to catch you. Yeah, no, the good fun. There you go. And yeah, we’ll put the LinkedIn details in the show notes. So be, you’d be very lucky to have Declan in your Rolodex. There you go. And people will go, what’s a Rolodex? You and I know back in the day.

Mike Richards: So thank you very much, sir. Great to chat to you and look forward to seeing you.

Declan Doorly: My pleasure. Thank you.